Originally posted by NemesioThey have different numbers?1&2.If your first example is what the topic is about then the difference would be the planes?The first one is murder and the second is suicide!
Let's make a comparison:
1) A person in burning building starts to become overcome by the heat. He has
the choice to wait in the building and die a slow, painful and lingering death or
jump out the window and die promptly.
2) A person with cancer in a hospital starts to become overcome by his illness. He
has the choice to wait in the hospital a ...[text shortened]... r
he can end it by euthenasia (or jumping out a window).
How are these different?
Nemesio
Originally posted by windmillThey might be similar if the cancer death was truly imminent (seconds or minutes away), if the patient was not surrounded by his/her loved ones but by hundreds of terrified peers, if they patient was not only in pain but had no access to drugs, a bed, etc. to make his/her life easier, and if there was little or nothing that patient could do to improve the lives of others (tell them he/she loves them, help them make plans for the future, etc.).
They have different numbers?1&2.If your first example is what the topic is about then the difference would be the planes?The first one is murder and the second is suicide!
Might be similar, but probably wouldn't be; there is the still the question to what extent people "chose" to throw themselves out of the window. The human body is not enormously tolerant to heat or smoke; staying in a hot/smoky building would itself require an effort of will that would eventually become unbearable.
Argument by analogy is not helpful; two such cases are never identical in all relevant moral respects. I suppose it can help bring issues into sharper focus, but really that should not be necessary.
Originally posted by NemesioWith option 2, correct pain-management can drastically reduce what would be called a "slow, painful and lingering death" to a bearable terminal illness.
Let's make a comparison:
1) A person in burning building starts to become overcome by the heat. He has
the choice to wait in the building and die a slow, painful and lingering death or
jump out the window and die promptly.
2) A person with cancer in a hospital starts to become overcome by his illness. He
has the choice to wait in the hospital a ...[text shortened]... r
he can end it by euthenasia (or jumping out a window).
How are these different?
Nemesio
In the hospital (option 1), their location isn't going to kill them, however, in 9/11 (option 2), staying in the burning room was certainly fatal; why not take your chances and jump.
Originally posted by no1marauderI doubt they are for just the reason of having to make that choice.
I was watching this show concerning the September 11th attacks and it brought up an interesting ethical question. I know that most mainstream Christians believe that those who commit suicide are automatically damned. In the aftermath of the planes crashing into the WTC, some people went out to the ledges of the buildings. As the fires approached them, th ...[text shortened]... e than the 88th floor, they knew it was suicide.
My question: are they eternally damned?
Kelly
Originally posted by NemesioThe difference (if any) lies in the degree of near-time certainty about the outcome. It seems to me that flames already hitting you creates more that feeling of 'certain death' than a cancer beyond cure (current state of the art), even to the extent that jumping may be considered (in the state of panic) as a desperate (but positive) act of escaping this certain death.
Let's make a comparison:
1) A person in burning building starts to become overcome by the heat. He has
the choice to wait in the building and die a slow, painful and lingering death or
jump out the window and die promptly.
2) A person with cancer in a hospital starts to become overcome by his illness. He
has the choice to wait in the hospital a ...[text shortened]... r
he can end it by euthenasia (or jumping out a window).
How are these different?
Nemesio
Wait, why is suicide considered an unforgivable sin? I know the Catholics have their catechisms and what not but I'm not Catholic and it is my understanding that we are already forgiven for ALL our sins...what makes suicide so special?
Call me naive but I always thought that to God sin is sin and he does not place value judgments on it at least from a salvation perspective. I just figured that it was no coincidence that societal repercussions for more "serious" sins are usually vastly more dire than for "smaller" sins...I just thought it was "created" that way.
Does anyone know the biblical justification for the assertion that suicide is unforgivable?
TheSkipper
Originally posted by TheSkipperWho is saying suicide is the unforgiveable sin? It is just one that
Wait, why is suicide considered an unforgivable sin? I know the Catholics have their catechisms and what not but I'm not Catholic and it is my understanding that we are already forgiven for ALL our sins...what makes suicide so special?
Call me naive but I always thought that to God sin is sin and he does not place value judgments on it at least from ...[text shortened]... ne know the biblical justification for the assertion that suicide is unforgivable?
TheSkipper
you cannot ask forgiveness for after you do it.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayYeah, I get that. I'm talking about heaven though...do I get to go if I'm a Christian that committed suicide?
Who is saying suicide is the unforgiveable sin? It is just one that
you cannot ask forgiveness for after you do it.
Kelly
Do you have to ask forgiveness for each sin in order to be forgiven of it? I always thought that was just done as a matter of respect and so that you could talk honestly to God in prayer without guilt getting in the way.
TheSkipper
Originally posted by no1maraudermarauder: "The article's answer is that we can't know if anybody is eternally damned because they commit suicide. Your answer was no. Your answer and the answer of the article are different."
No, Ivanhoe; it was a question. The article's answer is that we can't know if anybody is eternally damned because they commit suicide. Your answer was no. Your answer and the answer of the article are different. Other people might have a different answer. The question asked was to encourage discussion; I thought that was the purpose of this forum.
Of course the answers are "different". The article doesn't give an answer to your specific question. It is an answer to quite another question.
My answer is perfectly consistent with all of the article's content.
This is what the article states about suicide:
"Therefore, objectively, suicide is a mortal sin. (Moreover, to help someone commit suicide is also a mortal sin.) Here though we must remember that for a sin to be mortal and cost someone salvation, the objective action must be grave or serious matter (which in this case the taking of one's own life is); the person must have an informed intellect (know that this is wrong); and the person must give full consent of the will (intend to commit this action). In the case of suicide, a person may not have given full consent of the will. Fear, force, ignorance, habit, passion and psychological problems can impede the exercise of the will so that a person may not be fully responsible or even responsible at all for an action. Here again the Catechism states, "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide" (no. 2282). In the circumstances surrounding suicide, oftentimes a person has battled diagnosed clinical depression for many years; in such cases one would wonder whether the person was acting with the full consent of the will. This qualification does not make suicide a right action in any circumstance; however, it does make us realize that the person may not be totally culpable for the action because of various circumstances or personal conditions.
Only God can read the depths of our soul. Only He knows how much we love Him and how responsible we are for our actions. We leave the judgment then to Him alone. The Catechism offers words of great hope: "We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to Him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives" (no. 2283). Therefore, we do offer the Mass for the repose of the soul of a suicide victim, invoking God's tender love and mercy for him, and His healing grace for the grieving loved ones."
http://www.catholicherald.com/saunders/03ws/ws030605.htm
Originally posted by windmillThis is the most relevant, the most pointed and most true comment in this whole thread.
Because it isn't suicide...it's murder.
Those jumpers were not people who committed suicide by "jumping". They were victims of an act of terrorism.
Windmill, you couldn't have been more on topic with this comment.