Superstition

Originally posted by karoly aczel
(given your examples) I think we need to make it clear that there is that which is taboo and that which is against the law. And I'm not talking about the grey areas yet(necrophilia), I just threw that out as a guage in how you would react and if that ,(or something in a similar vein),was one of the avenues of discussuion you wished to pursue.

I mysel ...[text shortened]... to adress some everday taboos like "touching wood",not accosiating with alcohol drinkers,etc.

Then you don't mean taboo the same way as anyone else.

'Touch wood' is a superstition not a taboo. (and things that are taboo are often against the law)
Incest for example is taboo, and also against the law.


I don't know if associating with alcohol drinkers is a taboo, maybe it is in your culture, not
really prevalent in mine.
However if you go with my suggestion of irrational taboo's then you are covered for the alcohol drinkers.

And grey areas are always important, when discussing a scale the things that matter are the two extremes
to define the ends of the scale, and the grey area in the middle and where in it you draw the line (if a line
need be drawn)

If you want to suggest particular taboos you feel exist and should be thrown out then fine, but I am not going to
agree that all taboo's should be thrown out (baby in bathwater time).

Originally posted by googlefudge
I don't know if associating with alcohol drinkers is a taboo, maybe it is in your culture, not
really prevalent in mine.
However if you go with my suggestion of irrational taboo's then you are covered for the alcohol drinkers.

But its perfectly rational.
1. If you get in a car with an alcohol drinker at the wheel who has recently drunk alcohol, then your life is in danger. If you regularly associate with alcohol drinkers then the chances of situations similar to the above increase.
2. If you regularly associate with alcohol drinkers then you are more likely to become an alcohol drinker yourself.

I must note that I too do not know of anywhere where it is taboo, but I do know that Muslims (at least the ones I have talked to here in Cape Town), frown on alcohol consumption and are not supposed to buy from a shop that sells alcohol or invest in a business that deals in alcohol. But they have good rational reasons for this.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Then you don't mean taboo the same way as anyone else.

'Touch wood' is a superstition not a taboo. (and things that are taboo are often against the law)
Incest for example is taboo, and also against the law.


I don't know if associating with alcohol drinkers is a taboo, maybe it is in your culture, not
really prevalent in mine.
However if you g ...[text shortened]... I am not going to
agree that all taboo's should be thrown out (baby in bathwater time).

I may be permitted to intervene to state that religious concepts/practices which are considered superstitous include among other things,belief in miracles,belief in apparitions,charms,omens,incantations,afterlife, and efficacy of prayers. This is as per Wiki.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But its perfectly rational.
1. If you get in a car with an alcohol drinker at the wheel who has recently drunk alcohol, then your life is in danger. If you regularly associate with alcohol drinkers then the chances of situations similar to the above increase.
2. If you regularly associate with alcohol drinkers then you are more likely to become an alcoh ...[text shortened]... hol or invest in a business that deals in alcohol. But they have good rational reasons for this.

Sikhs have a taboo against smoking.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But its perfectly rational.
1. If you get in a car with an alcohol drinker at the wheel who has recently drunk alcohol, then your life is in danger. If you regularly associate with alcohol drinkers then the chances of situations similar to the above increase.
2. If you regularly associate with alcohol drinkers then you are more likely to become an alcoh ...[text shortened]... hol or invest in a business that deals in alcohol. But they have good rational reasons for this.

ah, drinking and driving is definitely taboo.

However as someone who is tea total and lives with people who are not, and
the vast majority of my friends are also not, I have to call bunk on being more
likely to drink.
And it's certainly not a rational reason not to associate with people who do.

I can associate with people who drink without 'getting in a car with a drunk person'
being sober means my judgement doesn't get impaired.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I may be permitted to intervene to state that religious concepts/practices which are considered superstitous include among other things,belief in miracles,belief in apparitions,charms,omens,incantations,afterlife, and efficacy of prayers. This is as per Wiki.

I have no disagreement with any of this. I would also add that belief in god itself is a
superstition.

Not sure why you said it in reply to my post which wasn't talking about religion at all?

But either way, I agree completely.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Sikhs have a taboo against smoking.

good for them, I have a taboo against smoking as well.
Which, being as how I am an atheist, is entirely non-religious in origin.

Note that, I do not have a taboo against smokers.

I think that smoking is stupid (and a whole lot of other things some of
which are unprintable), not that smokers are stupid (at least not implicitly
stupid).

Originally posted by googlefudge
However as someone who is tea total and lives with people who are not, and
the vast majority of my friends are also not, I have to call bunk on being more
likely to drink.

The fact that you have not turned to drink does not prove that you are not more likely to do so as a result of your relationships with drinkers. There can be little doubt that habits like alcohol consumption and smoking are in part passed on by association with practitioners.

And it's certainly not a rational reason not to associate with people who do.
It is, if you believe it will likely influence you to join them.

I for one, generally don't associate with drinkers when they are drinking to excess, simply because I don't like the way drunk people behave, but I don't avoid associating with people simply because they drink (I would have very few friends if I did that).

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I am giving here the wiki definitions. Religion is a collection of cultural systems,belief systems,and worldviews that establishes symbols which relate humanity to spirituality and moral values. Superstition is the incorrect establishment of cause and effect or a false conception of causation.

So do you agree with the OP that Religion is no more than codified Superstition?

Originally posted by googlefudge
I have no disagreement with any of this. I would also add that belief in god itself is a
superstition.

Not sure why you said it in reply to my post which wasn't talking about religion at all?

But either way, I agree completely.

According to theists, God is the Prime Cause. According to present Scientific thought, the Big Bang is the Prime Cause. According to me,assigning prime causation to Big Bang amounts to a false conception of causation,because no scientist has any idea about what happened before the Big Bang. So,we have here two superstitions on either side of the great divide. Take your choice.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So do you agree with the OP that Religion is no more than codified Superstition?

I believe in God. I do not consider the concept of God to be a superstition. Much of religion,other than the concept of God,is superstition.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
According to theists, God is the Prime Cause. According to present Scientific thought, the Big Bang is the Prime Cause. According to me,assigning prime causation to Big Bang amounts to a false conception of causation,because no scientist has any idea about what happened before the Big Bang. So,we have here two superstitions on either side of the great divide. Take your choice.

actually science doesn't have the big bang as the first cause.
certainly not as a matter of faith.

The problem for science atm is that we can't get past the big bang (going back in time)
because as it stands we hit a singularity.

Their may not be a before the big bang, because it might be the beginning of time, in which case you can't
have a before.

but many cosmologists don't believe in singularities or that there was nothing before the big bang.

But we can't know more till we can actually test any of the suggested proposals to move beyond the standard
model.

Either way, it is not a superstition.
And are certainly not equal.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The fact that you have not turned to drink does not prove that you are not more likely to do so as a result of your relationships with drinkers. There can be little doubt that habits like alcohol consumption and smoking are in part passed on by association with practitioners.

And it's certainly not a rational reason not to associate with people ...[text shortened]... o ciating with people simply because they drink (I would have very few friends if I did that).

you claimed that not associating with people who drink was rational.

not that not associating with people who are drinking to excess was rational.

Your statement that 'you would have really few friends' if you didn't associate with people who drink,
belies your claim that its rational to not associate with people who drink.

It isn't rational because having friends is more valuable, than not association with people who drink.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I believe in God. I do not consider the concept of God to be a superstition. Much of religion,other than the concept of God,is superstition.

Then prove the existence of god.

Until you can site evidence for your god's existence (or valid tests that would disprove its existence)
then belief in god is by definition a superstition.

You may not like this fact, but it is none the less true.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I believe in God. I do not consider the concept of God to be a superstition. Much of religion,other than the concept of God,is superstition.

So superstition is relative. ie its only superstition to those who don't believe it. For those that believe it, it is not superstition. So if I believe that walking under a ladder is bad luck it is not superstition to me, but it is to you.