Spirituality
11 May 18
21 May 18
Originally posted by @fmfWell I guess it's subjective. Of course when someone is accused of saying something about someone, subjective opinion is irrelevant and the exact quote should be used.
Not to a Christian, I don't think. When I was a Christian, for someone to have accused me of being ashamed of being a believer in Jesus Christ and for someone to have accused me - as a Christian - of being ashamed of Jesus Christ, would have both meant exactly the same thing. Not "completely different". Exactly the same.
But to me, someone who is ashamed of Christ--and I can't think of anyone that matches that description, nor even truly grasp the meaning--would be the exact opposite of Christian. Whereas for someone to be ashamed of being a believer is not only easy to understand, but I suspect there are many people who fit that description. One can believe Christ exists, yet be ashamed of all the "baggage" that comes along with it. The "baggage" being all the verses in Scripture that the believer is uncomfortable with. One can also be a believer, yet be ashamed that his/her Lord died such a gruesome and humiliating death on the cross.
21 May 18
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyHow’s would you classify Peter’s shame of his denial of knowing jesus after the arrest?
But to me, someone who is ashamed of Christ--and I can't think of anyone that matches that description, nor even truly grasp the meaning--would be the exact opposite of Christian. Whereas for someone to be ashamed of being a believer is not only easy to understand, but I suspect there are many people who fit that description. One can believe Christ exi ...[text shortened]... iever, yet be ashamed that his/her Lord died such a gruesome and humiliating death on the cross.
21 May 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterI would classify it as Peter being ashamed of himself.
How’s would you classify Peter’s shame of his denial of knowing jesus after the arrest?
The fact that you don't know the difference--or at least claim not to see the difference--between being ashamed of yourself and being ashamed of Christ, is the issue here. But since you allegedly don't see any difference, then I can assume you wouldn't mind rewording your accusation in the other thread to what the other person actually said?
21 May 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterAnd here you go again, assigning dishonesty to another person when you have absolutely no clue what their intentions are.
From a Christian perspective to be ashamed of Jesus and to be ashamed of believing in Jesus are exactly the same thing, to claim otherwise is disingenuous to say the least.
If you change the words in the other thread to what was actually said, maybe the people you are accusing of avoiding taking a position will offer up their opinion.
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Originally posted by @divegeesterWrong.
From a Christian perspective to be ashamed of Jesus and to be ashamed of believing in Jesus are exactly the same thing, to claim otherwise is disingenuous to say the least.
Someone who is ashamed of believing in Jesus is ashamed of believing He was God in the flesh, was sacrificed for the sins of the world and was Resurrected. That is what it means to *believe in* Jesus.
I doubt anyone is ashamed of Jesus in the sense that they are ashamed of a man who preached about forgiveness and loving one’s neighbor and helping the poor.
I think you, dive, are ashamed to *believe in* Jesus because you are ashamed to believe He was God in the flesh, was sacrificed for the sins of the world and was Resurrected. I think you think that makes you look like an unsophisticated country bumpkin that just fell off the turnip truck.
Understand the difference now?
Try asking questions instead of jumping to conclusions from a position of ignorance.
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Originally posted by @fmfWrong.
Not to a Christian, I don't think. When I was a Christian, for someone to have accused me of being ashamed of being a believer in Jesus Christ and for someone to have accused me - as a Christian - of being ashamed of Jesus Christ, would have both meant exactly the same thing. Not "completely different". Exactly the same.
They’re not “exactly the same.” They’re totally different.
Someone who is ashamed of believing in Jesus is ashamed of believing He was God in the flesh, was sacrificed for the sins of the world and was Resurrected. That is what it means to *believe in* Jesus.
I doubt anyone is ashamed of Jesus in the sense that they are ashamed of a man who preached about forgiveness and loving one’s neighbor and helping the poor.
I think dive is ashamed to *believe in* Jesus because he is ashamed to believe Jesus was God in the flesh, was sacrificed for the sins of the world and was Resurrected. I think he thinks that makes him look like an unsophisticated country bumpkin that just fell off the turnip truck.
Understand the difference now?
Try asking questions instead of jumping to conclusions from a position of ignorance.
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyYou're trying to conjure up a "difference" through waffling about it.
But to me, someone who is ashamed of Christ--and I can't think of anyone that matches that description, nor even truly grasp the meaning--would be the exact opposite of Christian. Whereas for someone to be ashamed of being a believer is not only easy to understand, but I suspect there are many people who fit that description. One can believe Christ exi ...[text shortened]... iever, yet be ashamed that his/her Lord died such a gruesome and humiliating death on the cross.
21 May 18
Originally posted by @tom-wolseySince when has being “ashamed of yourself” come into the conversation? We are discussing if there is a difference between being ashamed of Jesus and being ashamed of believing in Jesus. I say they are the same thing to a Christian, such as Peter.
I would classify it as Peter being ashamed of [b]himself.
The fact that you don't know the difference--or at least claim not to see the difference--between being ashamed of yourself and being ashamed of Christ, is the issue here. But since you allegedly don't see any difference, then I can assume you wouldn't mind rewording your accusation in the other thread to what the other person actually said?[/b]
How on earth can you read that Peter was ashamed of himself when he denied knowing Jesus?
21 May 18
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyI think you are being disingenuous, this is partly because of the utter waffle you are trying to pass off as legitimate debate on this subject, and partly because I just don’t trust you anyway.
And here you go again, assigning dishonesty to another person when you have absolutely no clue what their intentions are.
If you change the words in the other thread to what was actually said, maybe the people you are accusing of avoiding taking a position will offer up their opinion.
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21 May 18
Originally posted by @dj2beckerI know exactly why you are dodging this question FMF.
What has Dive said here that has convinced you that he is not ashamed of being a Christian? Could it maybe be that he hasn't been to church for 40 odd years? Or maybe the fact that he is always attacking Christians and siding with atheists?
21 May 18
Believing that Jesus existed is NOT what the topic is here. We are discussing the Christian perspective of believing in Jesus and not being ashamed of him, his teaching and the gospel generally.
In this context believing in Jesus and believing in the teaching of Jesus is exactly the same thing, or at least the former includes the latter.
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyLike I said, when I was a Christian, if someone had accused me of being ashamed of being a believer in Jesus Christ ~ or of being ashamed of Jesus Christ ~ both would have meant exactly the same thing.
Well I guess it's subjective. Of course when someone is accused of saying something about someone, subjective opinion is irrelevant and the exact quote should be used. But to me, someone who is ashamed of Christ--and I can't think of anyone that matches that description, nor even truly grasp the meaning--would be the exact opposite of Christian. Wherea ...[text shortened]... iever, yet be ashamed that his/her Lord died such a gruesome and humiliating death on the cross.