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Originally posted by @divegeesterI don't want to get involved in that argument.
Hey sonship, will you be standing with me on the "being ashamed of Jesus" issue I've raised in Thread 176968?
I'm not asking you to like me, agree with me or anything like that. I'm asking who will stand by me against the trolling I'm getting from Romans1009 accusing me of being ashamed of Jesus and the gospel etc.
Or of course you can stand by Romans1009, but if you think he is wrong......
Thanks for looking.
Whoever has the most grace, DIE with Him, so that you may be resurrected with Him in His image.
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22 May 18
Originally posted by @tom-wolsey'If' God exists (a big if) and is indeed omniscient, then clearly He is aware that the Earth is a globe.
Maybe the writer envisioned a map of the world.
Speaking of flat Earth. Do you have any pictures you can share that prove the Earth isn't flat? 😵
This is problematic for the writer of Revelation who clearly viewed the Earth as flat. This can only mean that his 'visions' were of his own imagination and not divinely inspired, for if they had been then he would have been using spherical language.
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22 May 18
2 edits
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeStep outside your front door.
'If' God exists (a big if) and is indeed omniscient, then clearly He is aware that the Earth is a globe.
This is problematic for the writer of Revelation who clearly viewed the Earth as flat. This can only mean that his 'visions' were of his own imagination and not divinely inspired, for if they had been then he would have been using spherical language.
Step away from buildings and look around.
Look in four directions.
Could you not speak of "four corners of the earth?"
The sentence doesn't tell us overly much about what John personally believed concerning this. It says what he was faithful to record as what he saw.
He also said he saw the stars of the sky fall down to the earth as figs blown off a tree in a strong wind.
" And the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind." (Rev. 6:13)
After getting over my initial 20th century giggling at the naivete of stars falling to the earth, latter as a more mature Christian I asked -
"Well, what would a massive meteor shower look like to a viewer two thousand years ago? Probably, like the stars falling out of the heavens."
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22 May 18
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeSome Bible critics have claimed that Revelation 7:1 assumes a flat Earth since the verse refers to angels standing at the “four corners” of the Earth. Actually, the reference is to the cardinal directions: north, south, east, and west. Similar terminology is often used today when we speak of the sun's rising and setting, even though the Earth, not the sun, is doing the moving. Bible writers used the “language of appearance,” just as people always have. Without it, the intended message would be awkward at best and probably not understood clearly. [DD]
'If' God exists (a big if) and is indeed omniscient, then clearly He is aware that the Earth is a globe.
This is problematic for the writer of Revelation who clearly viewed the Earth as flat. This can only mean that his 'visions' were of his own imagination and not divinely inspired, for if they had been then he would have been using spherical language.
In the Old Testament, Job 26:7 explains that the Earth is suspended in space, the obvious comparison being with the spherical sun and moon. [DD]
A literal translation of Job 26:10 is “He described a circle upon the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end.” A spherical Earth is also described in Isaiah 40:21-22—“the circle of the earth.”
Note, the Biblical Hebrew word for “circle” (חוג—chuwg) can also mean “round” or “sphere.”
“The Earth a Sphere—Certain astronomical relations were recognized very early. The stars appear as if attached to a globe rotating round the Earth once in 24 hours, and this appearance was clearly familiar to the author of the Book of Job, and indeed long before the time of Abraham, since the formation of the constellations could not have been effected without such recognition. But the spherical form of the heavens almost involves a similar form for the Earth, and their apparent diurnal rotation certainly means that they are not rigidly connected with the Earth, but surround it on all sides at some distance from it. The Earth therefore must be freely suspended in space, and so the Book of Job describes it: ‘He stretcheth out the north over empty space, and hangeth the Earth upon nothing’ (Job 26:7).” (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)]
Proverbs 8:27 also suggests a round Earth by use of the word circle (e.g., New King James Bible and New American Standard Bible). If you are overlooking the ocean, the horizon appears as a circle. This circle on the horizon is described in Job 26:10. The circle on the face of the waters is one of the proofs that the Greeks used for a spherical Earth. Yet here it is recorded in Job, ages before the Greeks discovered it. Job 26:10 indicates that where light terminates, darkness begins. This suggests day and night on a spherical globe. [JSM]
The Hebrew record is the oldest, because Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible. Historians generally [wrongly] credit the Greeks with being the first to suggest a spherical Earth. In the sixth century B.C., Pythagoras suggested a spherical Earth. [JSM]
Eratosthenes of Alexandria (circa 276 to 194 or 192 B.C.) calcuated the circumference of the Earth “within 50 miles of the present estimate.” [Encyclopedia Brittanica]
The Greeks also drew meridians and parallels. They identified such areas as the poles, equator, and tropics. This spherical Earth concept did not prevail; the Romans drew the Earth as a flat disk with oceans around it. [JSM]
The round shape of our planet was a conclusion easily drawn by watching ships disappear over the horizon and also by observing eclipse shadows, and we can assume that such information was well known to New Testament writers. Earth's spherical shape was, of course, also understood by Christopher Columbus. [DD]
The implication of a round Earth is seen in the book of Luke, where Jesus described his return, Luke 17:31. Jesus said, “In that day,” then in verse 34, “In that night.” This is an allusion to light on one side of the globe and darkness on the other simultaneously. [JSM]
It is also interesting to note that there are 16 scriptures which refer to God stretching out the heavens. These are remarkable confirmations that the Bible is true, as we know today that the heavens are rapidly expanding. [TH]
“When the Bible touches on scientific subjects, it is entirely accurate.” [DD]
https://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c015.html
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22 May 18
Originally posted by @sonship"Look in four directions. Could you not speak of "four corners of the earth?"
Step outside your front door.
Step away from buildings and look around.
Look in four directions.
Could you not speak of "four corners of the earth?"
The sentence doesn't tell us overly much about what John personally believed concerning this. It says what he was faithful to record as what he saw.
He also said he saw the stars of the ...[text shortened]... ike to a viewer two thousand years ago? Probably, like the stars falling out of the heavens."
No.
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22 May 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeI see. Okay.
"Look in four directions. Could you not speak of "four corners of the earth?"
No.
What would you assume was meant by "the four corners of the earth?"
Or does the phrase leave you so utterly perplexed that you have no idea of what was being conveyed?
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22 May 18
Originally posted by @sonshipAs explained, the writer was speaking as someone who viewed the world as flat. (Having 4 corners). Nothing more than that. This clearly demonstrates his visions were of his own manufacture, as any divine revelation from an omniscient deity wouldn't have used such erroneous language.
I see. Okay.
What would you assume was meant by "the four corners of the earth?"
Or does the phrase leave you so utterly perplexed that you have no idea of what was being conveyed?
We see this error repeated in Matthew 4:8 "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory."
Ancient misunderstandings about the shape of the Earth betrays their lack of divine authorship.
22 May 18
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeAgain, maybe the writer envisioned a map of the world. Hence the 4 corners.
'If' God exists (a big if) and is indeed omniscient, then clearly He is aware that the Earth is a globe.
This is problematic for the writer of Revelation who clearly viewed the Earth as flat. This can only mean that his 'visions' were of his own imagination and not divinely inspired, for if they had been then he would have been using spherical language.
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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
As explained, the writer was speaking as someone who viewed the world as flat. (Having 4 corners). Nothing more than that. This clearly demonstrates his visions were of his own manufacture, as any divine revelation from an omniscient deity wouldn't have used such erroneous language.
Do you remember though when US astronauts took the mighty Saturn Five rocket up to the moon ?
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22 May 18
I admit that the kinds of questions I would hope for seem not to be forthcoming. Too bad for me.
In the meantime I would like to make some overview statements about this book.
Various categories of saints of God are covered in this book. They are not all covered in the same place. But they are all covered usually someplace. He is a guideline.
1.) Believers in God from all earth times throughout all generations.
The unnumbered multitude - Revelation 7:9-17
The New Jerusalem after the millennial kingdom - Rev. 21,22
2.) Overcoming believers deceased from ages gone by
The souls of martyred saints underneath the altar - Rev. 6:9-11
3.) Overcoming Christians alive on earth at the time of first rapture.
The 144,000 Firstfruits standing on Mt. Zion - Rev. 14:1-14.
4.) Saints of Christ left on the earth after the first rapture to pass through the great tribulation.
The fleeing bright woman persecuted by the dragon - Rev. 12:6, 12, 17
5.) Defeated Christians left after the first rapture.
Those warned about His sudden coming and them being found unprepared - Rev. 3:2,3
6.) All believers rapured at the END of the great tribulation.
The Harvest - Rev. 14:14-16
7.) Those believers martyred during the great tribulation.
Those martyred by Antichrist - Rev. 14:14:13.
The overcomers standing on the sea of glass - Rev. 15:2-4
8.) Those dead overcoming saints resurrected and raptured at the beginning of the great tribulation.
The manchild brought forth by the Bright Woman - Rev. 12:5, 10.
9.) The Jews preserved by God's sovereignty through the time of the great tribulation.
144,000 of the Tribes of Israel - Revelation 7:1-8.
10.) The nations of people preserved to benefit from the sons of God.
The nations healed by the leaves of the tree of life and sorrounding the Holy City New Jerusaelem - Rev. 21:24-27
11.) The overcomers selected to accompany Christ in His descent to earth.
The Bride coming with Him to Armageddon - Rev. 19:5-6,11-16)
The overcomers listed in chapters 2,3 - Rev 2,3.
(See the end of each of the seven epistles).
I have to stop writing now to go do something. Sorry.
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22 May 18
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyNot a very strong argument.
Again, maybe the writer envisioned a map of the world. Hence the 4 corners.
What else you got Sherlock?
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22 May 18
Originally posted by @sonshipIs this the point when you query again whether man walked on the moon?!As explained, the writer was speaking as someone who viewed the world as flat. (Having 4 corners). Nothing more than that. This clearly demonstrates his visions were of his own manufacture, as any divine revelation from an omniscient deity wouldn't have used such erroneous language.
Do you remember though when US astronauts took the mighty Saturn Five rocket up to the moon ?
Curious sonship how you flag up 'poor questions' while simultaneously providing woefully poor answers.
22 May 18
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeSince it was established in the OT, thousands of years before Revelation was written, that Earth is not a square or rectangle, it's quite obvious the writer was not referring to Earth as such. The word used as "corners" is also translated as "quadrants," or "extremities."
Not a very strong argument.
What else you got Sherlock?
Either way we look at it, your argument is clearly not incontestable.
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22 May 18
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyHey, now you're cooking! Welcome to the discussion:
Since it was established in the OT, thousands of years before Revelation was written, that Earth is not a square or rectangle, it's quite obvious the writer was not referring to Earth as such. The word used as "corners" is also translated as "quadrants," or "extremities."
Either way we look at it, your argument is clearly not incontestable.
'The Bible is, from Genesis to Revelation, a flat-earth book. - This is hardly surprising. As neighbors, the ancient Hebrews had the Egyptians to the southwest and the Babylonians to the northeast. Both civilizations had flat-earth cosmologies. The Biblical cosmology closely parallels the Sumero-Babylonian cosmology, and it may also draw upon Egyptian cosmology.
The Babylonian universe was shaped like a modern domed stadium. The Babylonians considered the earth essentially flat, with a continental mass surrounded by ocean. The vault of the sky was a physical object resting upon the ocean's waters (and perhaps also upon pillars). Sweet (salt-free) waters below the Earth sometimes manifest themselves as springs. The Egyptian universe was also enclosed, but it was rectangular instead of round.'
http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/misc/misc/FlatEarth/FlatEarthAndBible.html