Tangible proof that God exists

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Imagine I put two guns, one loaded and the other empty, in front of you, forced you to select one, put it against your head, and pull the trigger.

The choice must be made. Your destiny is in your hands. You own the choice. You have exercised free will over this choice, which will determine whether you live or die.

So if you happen to blow your ...[text shortened]... comparison, explain how the situation with your God differs, rather than just calling me stupid.

God doesn't depend on random luck. There is not a soul in this forum who has not been exposed to just what the Word of God is about. The information is there. A choice is made to believe it or not to believe it. The choice is made because we have free will to decide what information we have access to is true, and what information is false.

In your scenario, we have zero information about which is true. The Bible is from God. In it, he lays out his case. The information is there and a choice is made. We're told how to choose wisely, and we have access to many instances of people choosing poorly, as well as the consequences. Your choice-scenario is only from man. There is no way to come to an opinion of right/wrong, true/false. It's entirely random and cruel. God does not wish any to choose poorly and so he lays it out quite completely which choice is the wise choice. There is no randomness. Only a free will choice to choose the wise choice or the poor choice, so that no one can claim they were fooled. If one still chooses poorly, then one could only assume the wrong choice was made out of vanity, that our own understanding of the world is more correct than our creator's. But in your scenario, we could choose poorly through no fault of our own. There is no one telling us which is the wise choice, and so the choice is entirely random. In your scenario, we cannot tell which gun is loaded. We have no clue. In the Bible, we are TOLD which gun is 'loaded'. We're even given multiple examples of what happens when we choose poorly. We DO have a clue. It's just up to us whether we heed the advice or not.

Originally posted by googlefudge
You have spectacularly missed the point.

Suppose you have a decision to make about how to invest your money for retirement.
You want to make the best most responsible decision possible so as to maximise your chances of
having sufficient money to comfortably retire and support yourself in your old age.

Now Suzianne's position is that you should m ...[text shortened]... sion, whether it's about investing for retirement or deciding
whether to worship a god or not.

No, it is you who have "spectacularly" missed the point.

Your givens are incorrect, and I'm sure you understand the flaw that lends to your deductions.

I didn't say "no" knowledge. But here is where you and I differ. I've said before that faith IS a form of knowledge. You disagree. So we DO have knowledge of which choice is correct, but this knowledge is through faith. God TELLS us which choice is the wise choice. That is what the Bible is all about. It is a directional marker, telling us which way to go. Our faith gives us knowledge of this wise choice. Your lack of faith leaves you clueless, and so you must create your own understanding from your own vanity. And this is what causes you to choose poorly. Faith gives us the knowledge we need to choose wisely. Creating our own "knowledge" from our own vanity causes us to choose poorly. But this choice is still free will. We choose to believe. We choose God. You choose to disbelieve and to convince yourselves over and over again, from your own vanity, that you are correct. You also close yourselves off to access to the faith that can save you, and that too is a choice. A choice made from vanity, not from God.

Your mistake comes from this idea that faith is worthless. But faith is what saves us. It gives us the key to the greatest "cheat-sheet" ever made. Our faith saves us because through faith, we have the knowledge necessary to choose wisely. Having no tangible "proof" is not the same as not knowing which choice is the wise choice. Faith is the difference. We are saved because we have made the choice to believe.

I hear what you are thinking (because you're thinking it quite loudly, admit it). You're thinking this is circular logic. This is due to your "black-and-white" thinking. Faith is faith, you're saying. All faith is the same. No, all faith is not the same, there are degrees of faith. One grows in their faith, and it is a process, not a light-switch. Ask any Christian of their journey to Christ. We don't all arrive at the end point at the same time in our travels, nor even after the same amount of time invested. This is because we grow in our faith, one step at a time. I think it is often this "curve" of faith that results in many of the arguments Christians have between themselves (I mean those besides those based on doctrinal differences). But I digress. My point is that one starts on this road with the tiniest amount of faith (Jesus referred to it as the faith of the 'mustard seed' ). This faith might be only that God exists. This faith results eventually in more faith, maybe that the Bible is the Word of God. This faith grows over time, in a normal progression, until eventually the decision is made to become a Christian, and to invest in the choice that will guide the rest of their life. First we believe, and then our faith eventually leads to the knowledge of our greater choice and of our destiny. So faith leads to faith, yes, but these are different degrees of faith, and this is not circular at all, because a circular faith would lead one back to the beginning, to a time of only little faith. This doesn't usually happen, because faith leads to knowledge. (And yes, I know you don't buy this, but there you are.) And because of this, no, you don't need ALL the knowledge "up front". You can't write your doctorate as an underclassman. There must be growth, a maturing of one's faith. And part of this growth comes from trust in God, and for most humans, this takes time.

And no, I'm not going to compare growing one's faith in God to "investing for retirement" (although, truthfully, after writing that last sentence flippantly, I'm struck by the actual similarity between the two. Our faith is our "nest egg", it must be nurtured and grown).

But yes, this is a long post (for me), and I fully understand it will have zero impact on you and you'll waste no time "shooting it down". Go ahead. Don't let me stand in the way of the full exercise of your free will.

Originally posted by Suzianne

Suzi
If I came to you with an idea which you considered completely preposterous.
And then I said you just need faith - believe in it a "little bit" (mustard seed) to start.
What would you say?

Like : the Earth is flat and on the back of a gigantic turtle.

Originally posted by Suzianne
No, it is you who have "spectacularly" missed the point.

Your givens are incorrect, and I'm sure you understand the flaw that lends to your deductions.

I didn't say "no" knowledge. But here is where you and I differ. I've said before that faith IS a form of knowledge. You disagree. So we DO have knowledge of which choice is correct, but this knowl ...[text shortened]... ting it down". Go ahead. Don't let me stand in the way of the full exercise of your free will.

Your lack of faith leaves you clueless, and so you must create your own understanding from your own vanity

What. the hell does 'vanity' have to do with this.

Seriously, stop trying to read my mind you suck at it.

God TELLS us which choice is the wise choice. That is what the Bible is all about. It is a directional marker, telling us which way to go.

And how about the Quran, or the Torah, or the Bhagavad Gita, Lebor Gabála Érenn, Pyrgi Tablets, The Rikkokushi, etc etc etc.
There are hundreds [if not thousands] of holy books for hundreds [if not thousands] of religions all with believers who believe
based on faith just like you. And they will cite their holy books just as you cite yours.

You cannot all be right [although you can all be wrong] and thus we see proof yet again that faith doesn't work.
It doesn't lead you to the truth by any mechanism other than blind luck.

People who believe the bible is the word of god don't make up a majority of the people on this Earth and they will shortly
not even be the largest single block of humanity as Islam grows to exceed your numbers. And that's even with me being
very generous and counting all possible variates of Christianity as being one unified block, which is clearly untrue.

Knowledge is a justified true belief. The true part is important because it means that you can't know mutually exclusive things
because one of them [at least] must be false.
And from this we can see that any claimed justification that leads to mutually exclusive beliefs being accepted cannot be a
valid or viable form of justification for knowledge.
Faith clearly and demonstrably leads people to claim as true mutually exclusive propositions.
Faith therefore CANNOT be a valid justification for a knowledge claim.

If [heh] you disagree, instead of stamping your foot, running away, trying to guess my thoughts, or simply insulting me.
Try actually engaging and argue your point logically and calmly.

Also, try thinking this through as if you were NOT already convinced that your god exists.

Originally posted by Suzianne
God doesn't depend on random luck. There is not a soul in this forum who has not been exposed to just what the Word of God is about. The information is there. A choice is made to believe it or not to believe it. The choice is made because we have free will to decide what information we have access to is true, and what information is false.

In your sc ...[text shortened]... hen we choose poorly. We DO have a clue. It's just up to us whether we heed the advice or not.

So how do you explain that the overwhelming majority of children brought up in devout Christian households choose Christianity as their religion, whereas the overwhelming majority of children brought up in devout Muslim households choose Islam as their religion? These are not the results you would expect if people are exercising a truly free choice based on information which can help determine what is or is not true.

I would go further and say that, had you been brought up in rural Pakistan to a devout Muslim family, you would almost certainly be saying the same about the Quran today as you are saying about the Bible. I doubt you will admit this, but it is nonetheless highly likely that this would be the case.

So, if you have chosen correctly, and the Muslim 'Suzianne' has not, it is effectively a coin toss based on when and where you were born. So in what conceivable sense is this fair?

To put it another way (and I expect your answer will simply be a version of 'it ain't gonna happen' ) what if you emerge after death and discover that the Quran is right and you are going to hell simply for being a Christian.

Would you still consider the system to be fair then? I think not.

So why is it fair the other way round, when the odds are so heavily stacked against anyone not brought up in the Christian faith/surroundings?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Suzi
If I came to you with an idea which you considered completely preposterous.
And then I said you just need faith - believe in it a "little bit" (mustard seed) to start.
What would you say?

Like : the Earth is flat and on the back of a gigantic turtle.

I could examine the "preposterous" bit and see if it really is "preposterous".

Like "the Earth is flat and on the back of a gigantic turtle." Yep, that's preposterous.

By the way, I have such a drawing as my screen saver, ever since GF posted a link to one. 🙂

Originally posted by googlefudge

Your lack of faith leaves you clueless, and so you must create your own understanding from your own vanity

What. the hell does 'vanity' have to do with this.

Seriously, stop trying to read my mind you suck at it.

[quote]God TELLS us which choice is the wise choice. That is what the Bible is all about. It is a directional marker, ...[text shortened]... y.

Also, try thinking this through as if you were NOT already convinced that your god exists.

"Seriously, stop trying to read my mind you suck at it."
So you are claiming that my reasoning is NOT "circular"? That's a new one from you.

"Also, try thinking this through as if you were NOT already convinced that your god exists."
So I should approach your position as if I already believed it. Yeah, that's not logic. It's just you insisting. Should I try advising you to, "try thinking this through as if you were NOT already convinced that God DOESN'T exist"? Exactly how far would that fly?

Sorry, logic is not on your side today. You're just wanting me to believe what you say based on the fact that it's what you say, all the while complaining that I'm doing the same. Ummmmmm, wait, what?

Originally posted by Rank outsider
So how do you explain that the overwhelming majority of children brought up in devout Christian households choose Christianity as their religion, whereas the overwhelming majority of children brought up in devout Muslim households choose Islam as their religion? These are not the results you would expect if people are exercising a truly free choice ba ...[text shortened]... e odds are so heavily stacked against anyone not brought up in the Christian faith/surroundings?

Again, as I said to Wolfgang, adults can and will evaluate what they have been brought up believing. It happens all the time. Sometime we decide that what we have been brought up believing is a stumbling block to what we want to believe now. Sometimes we realize that yeah, maybe mom and dad were right after all. This phenomenon is so common that I cannot believe that you guys are actually arguing that we have no (zero) choice in the matter. Sorry, not buying it. Adults exercise their free will on a daily basis, and once in a while, religious belief is part of that. I find it interesting that almost as a block, atheists, who should be a prime proponent of free will and that we alone are the arbiters of our own destiny, actually claim that free will doesn't exist. This makes no sense to me.

Maybe it's when people start assigning blame (for want of a better word) that the atheists apparently opt out of relying on their own decision-making skills. Even Han Solo always claimed that "It's not my fault!"

Originally posted by Suzianne
[b]"Seriously, stop trying to read my mind you suck at it."
So you are claiming that my reasoning is NOT "circular"? That's a new one from you.

"Also, try thinking this through as if you were NOT already convinced that your god exists."
So I should approach your position as if I already believed it. Yeah, that's not logic. It's just you i ...[text shortened]... that it's what you say, all the while complaining that I'm doing the same. Ummmmmm, wait, what?[/b]

"Also, try thinking this through as if you were NOT already convinced that your god exists."
So I should approach your position as if I already believed it. Yeah, that's not logic. It's just you insisting. Should I try advising you to, "try thinking this through as if you were NOT already convinced that God DOESN'T exist"? Exactly how far would that fly?

The problem is I frequently "try thinking this through as if I was not already convinced that god doesn't exist".

It's called a hypothetical, and I/we do it all the time.

Every time we 'suppose that a god or god exists, let's see how this effects issue X' we are doing this.

I am emphatically NOT asking you to approach my position as if you already believed it.

I am asking you to try, once in a while, to try to think through a problem from our point of view in the hope
that you might UNDERSTAND our position, not so that you will necessarily agree with it.

Sorry, logic is not on your side today. You're just wanting me to believe what you say based on the fact that it's what you say, all the while complaining that I'm doing the same. Ummmmmm, wait, what?

This is what I am talking about with the attempted mind reading.
That is not even close to what I want.

You are constantly guessing what my motives are, instead of dealing with the argument I am making.
And you yet again get it hopelessly wrong, because you don't UNDERSTAND me or my position.

THAT is what I am trying to fix.

I am going for understanding, not agreement.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Again, as I said to Wolfgang, adults can and will evaluate what they have been brought up believing. It happens all the time. Sometime we decide that what we have been brought up believing is a stumbling block to what we want to believe now. Sometimes we realize that yeah, maybe mom and dad were right after all. This phenomenon is so common that I canno ...[text shortened]... ing on their own decision-making skills. Even Han Solo always claimed that "It's not my fault!"

He/We wasn't arguing that people have "zero choice" in the matter.

He was arguing that the "overwhelming majority" of people apparently 'choose' the religion
of their parents/cultures. And this is true.

You are arguing that faith leads to a particular conclusion and isn't dumb luck or random chance.

So how come most people using 'faith' just pick what their parents/culture tells them they should pick.
THIS is how a hypothetical works...

Let's assume that you are correct and that religious faith leads a person to [your] god.

Then let us ask, "What would a world where that is true look like?"

Well everyone [or at least the vast majority] of people who form religious beliefs through faith should
come to the same conclusion and the same beliefs.
Their should be one [major] faith into which [almost] everyone who forms faith based beliefs should
gravitate. Because the "one true god" guides everyone into the same beliefs and gives them the
same guidance.

Okay, what do we actually see?

We see many many different religions, with many factions and arguments inside those religions.
Those religions are mutually contradictory, and cannot all be right and all are justified by faith.
A majority doesn't believe in any single religion, and within major religions the believers regularly
schism due to disagreements over the nature of the truth of that religion.

The world doesn't look like it would look IF what you claim to be true were actually true.

So either our observations of the world are wrong, or what you are claiming about faith is not true.

And none of that has to do with the free will stuff you brought up as a distraction.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I could examine the "preposterous" bit and see if it really is "preposterous".

Like "the Earth is flat and on the back of a gigantic turtle." Yep, that's preposterous.

By the way, I have such a drawing as my screen saver, ever since GF posted a link to one. 🙂

Discworld ftw.

Ok, but why can't we do the same with your 'preposterous' claims about religion?

You are claiming special treatment for your religious beliefs that you don't extend to other claims.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I could examine the "preposterous" bit and see if it really is "preposterous".

Like "the Earth is flat and on the back of a gigantic turtle." Yep, that's preposterous.

By the way, I have such a drawing as my screen saver, ever since GF posted a link to one. 🙂

With all respect - and I mean this quite sincerely - your god
(or any god for that matter) is as preposterous to me as the
earth being carried on the back of a giant turtle.

And you really should try hard to understand that or you will
never understand an atheist view point.