19 Mar 07
Originally posted by TheSkipperBelieve me, I have had a few quite ugly fits on here...
Ha! This is exactly what I should have expected you to say!
You have become predictable in your humility, vistesd. An enviable trait, to be sure.
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Actually, perhaps it really is simple (which is not the same thing as easy). It is perhaps ourselves, with all the complexities of our conscious minds, that make it complicated. And our efforts to find meaning in a world that discloses, not meaning, but only facts, relationships, patterns—out of which we are left to compose meaning for ourselves. Perhaps that is part of why we rebel against the simplicity...
Being in the world, aware, letting go of thoughts and formulae and opinions—and behold! The tathata, the “suchness/thusness” of it all, the logos, the Tao... Of which we are, without separation. So inseparable that it is difficult to say: “This is mind; this is world.”
But then, in my case, what I call the “mind-runner” starts again—probably out of compulsive habit/addiction. And it runs, sometimes frenetically, until I am worn out with it; or until I realize I have fallen prey to it again, and stop. Each time, hopefully, it takes less time...
Not that there is anything inherently wrong with metaphysical thinking, inquiring—even arguing. The error is in losing one’s inner balance and clarity.
The tathata includes the rattlesnake as well as the rose, the earthquake as well as the sunrise, and the foreknowledge of my death as well as the pleasure of this single breath. Sometimes, we construct vast and articulate thought-systems to conceal from ourselves the aspects that we hate or fear—not cottages in the air, but well-fortified castles. And when those castles begin to crumble, we may strive desperately to save them—sometimes, it must be admitted, with quite clever and intelligent attempts at redesign; hence our metaphysical and religious constructs grow ever-more complicated, and more difficult to deconstruct.
But, perhaps, in the end, it really is simple...
19 Mar 07
Originally posted by TheSkipperThis is how it all looks to those of us outside the Church, can you blame us for not being terribly impressed with your delusion? SKIPPER
Here is why your analogy does not work for me:
God hides the ball and the water does not. When a man is thirsty he knows exactly what he needs (water) and the wise man goes to find some. However, God does not present itself to the thirsty as simple, easy to see, water but water disguised as something else, which is why you need to do all sorts of int ...[text shortened]... outside the Church, can you blame us for not being terribly impressed with your delusion?
Absolutely not. Of course to the outsider it looks potty. In Acts when the Holy Spirit comes upon the believers a similar thing happens in the sense that outsiders think they must be drunk or something because they are speaking in tongues etc. I'm certainly not blaming you or anyone. I accept that God being invisible is a disadvantage because it means that he is not readily available to our sense in the normal way. This does not mean he cannot be sensed or "felt" though. Another advantage that God has is the sheer intimacy and love with which he communicates. If God "touches" you it will feel very very personal and intimate , like meeting an old friend who knows what hurts you deep inside.
As for God being hard to find or in disguise there is some truth to this , however one thing that happens when you become a Christian is that you realise that God has always been there present with you all along it's just you didn't see it at the time. It's like looking for your glasses only to wake up and feel them on your head.
What I am also saying might take a bit of getting used to for you. God is active in your life right now whether you realise it or not. He is already helping you to drink from him. For example , if you have ever felt really low or struggling with something and some how have managed to find some hidden inner strength to make it through...that's God helping you and being involved in your life. You would probably attribute it to something else though.
BTW Is your imaginary church scene based on personal experience?
19 Mar 07
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterI appreciate your acknowledgement that it all looks a tad ridiculious to the rest of us, but let;s get back to the analogy.
This is how it all looks to those of us outside the Church, can you blame us for not being terribly impressed with your delusion? SKIPPER
Absolutely not. Of course to the outsider it looks potty. In Acts when the Holy Spirit comes upon the believers a similar thing happens in the sense that outsiders think they must be drunk or something because the ething else though.
BTW Is your imaginary church scene based on personal experience?
What we have, then, is water (god) that can't/won't force itself down our throats (in spite of its omni-everything status), is invisible, and/or cannot be seen unless it "reveals itself to us", in order to find it(assuming it will even agree to the afore mentioned revelation) you need to tolerate people like ballsofsteel hanging around all over the place and then if you fail to accomplish even one of these things you "die". Why even call it water?
BTW, I have never had a Church experience like the one I described. I always attended, what i guess you would call, mainstream churches. No snake handling, speaking jibberish or slaying in the spirit. Just your average services...sing some, hear some announcements, listen to the pastor talk about something he found in the Bible that he thinks is relevant, a little more singing, then we all go eat pie.
EDIT: I rather liked the pie part.
19 Mar 07
Originally posted by TheSkipperYou should heed the word of God rather than man. Don't listen to either me or vistesd, instead go to the bible. I'm not the most humble man in the world, admittedly, but I trust God's word. So take up your accusations with my Father, because it is His word which you have a problem with. If you choose to reject Jesus Christ that is your business; quit blaming it on others.
Arrogance! Thy name is ballsofsteel!
Vistesd, has shown himself to know more about scripture and the religions of the world than almost any person I have ever met, yet if you were to ask him I guarantee he would claim to understand almost nothing.
You, on the other hand, seem to know almost nothing yet claim to understand everything. Not only claim ...[text shortened]...
You run along now and sing psalms about smashing babies heads against rocks all you want; fool.
"I cursed all the people like you and I curse you now."
Well, I bless you in return for your curse. God bless you, Skipper. Amen.
19 Mar 07
Originally posted by ballsofsteelI curse you and call you a fool in front of a bunch of people and you bless me. Meanwhile, the book you tell me to read (which I have read extensively, with an open heart and mind, BTW) praises the smashing of babies against rocks (among a multitude of other despicable things). Tell you what, you save your blessing and use that extra little bit of compassion to join the rest of the civilized world in thinking that smashing babies against rocks is evil.
You should heed the word of God rather than man. Don't listen to either me or vistesd, instead go to the bible. I'm not the most humble man in the world, admittedly, but I trust God's word. So take up your accusations with my Father, because it is His word which you have a problem with. If you choose to reject Jesus Christ that is your business; qui ...[text shortened]... ou now."
Well, I bless you in return for your curse. God bless you, Skipper. Amen.[/b]
Look, if it turns out that the Bible is literally the word of God, my problem will not be with his words it will be with him.
I do not blame anyone for my lack of belief in God but if it turns out I’m wrong and I one day find myself standing before God while he judges me and he wants to know why I didn’t believe I will point squarely at you (and those like you) and say because his hate, his arrogance, his self righteous piety, blinded me to the truth.
Keep your blessing.
19 Mar 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ballsofsteelIt was perhaps presumptuous of me to try to respond to WW’s opening question from within a paradigm in which I no longer live, despite the fact that I spent most of my life (till nearly the age of 50) there—I mean the Christian paradigm generally, not the particular Eastern Orthodox view I was presenting (and long before I began any project of deconstruction). And then to argue that with you, to boot...
You should heed the word of God rather than man. Don't listen to either me or vistesd, instead go to the bible. I'm not the most humble man in the world, admittedly, but I trust God's word. So take up your accusations with my Father, because it is His word which you have a problem with. If you choose to reject Jesus Christ that is your business; qui ou now."
Well, I bless you in return for your curse. God bless you, Skipper. Amen.[/b]
Your comment to Skipper about not listening to either one of us made me think of a prayer: “God, never let me convince anybody of anything...”
You point to what you believe is the word of God; I point to the awareness that lies “behind the makings of the mind.” In both cases, we are pointing away from ourselves. In both cases, it is good to remind people not to get fixated on the pointing itself, or how well or poorly we are doing it.
My post about the tathata reflects where I do live. You believe that I am in error; I believe that you are in error. It’s as simple as that.
19 Mar 07
Originally posted by TheSkipperWhatever. You say you don't blame anyone for your lack of belief, yet you go on to say that you'll point your finger squarely at me and blame me for your lack of belief. Did I express any hatred? No. I shared the word of God. Did I show any arrogance? No. I shared the word of God. Did I behave with self-righteous piety? No, I said, "take it up with my Father." Your curses don't frighten me, and neither do your threats -- take it up with my Father. May he bless you.
I do not blame anyone for my lack of belief in God but if it turns out I’m wrong and I one day find myself standing before God while he judges me and he wants to know why I didn’t believe I will point squarely at you (and those like you) and say because his hate, his arrogance, his self righteous piety, blinded me to the truth.
19 Mar 07
Originally posted by TheSkipperyou need to tolerate people like ballsofsteel hanging around all over the place and then if you fail to accomplish even one of these things you "die". Why even call it water? SKIPPER
I appreciate your acknowledgement that it all looks a tad ridiculious to the rest of us, but let;s get back to the analogy.
What we have, then, is water (god) that can't/won't force itself down our throats (in spite of its omni-everything status), is invisible, and/or cannot be seen unless it "reveals itself to us", in order to find it(assuming it will ...[text shortened]... vant, a little more singing, then we all go eat pie.
EDIT: I rather liked the pie part.
I'm not sure what you are saying , this seems a bit incoherent to me . Could you clarify?
19 Mar 07
Originally posted by TheSkipperTell you what, you save your blessing and use that extra little bit of compassion to join the rest of the civilized world in thinking that smashing babies against rocks is evil.
I curse you and call you a fool in front of a bunch of people and you bless me. Meanwhile, the book you tell me to read (which I have read extensively, with an open heart and mind, BTW) praises the smashing of babies against rocks (among a multitude of other despicable things). Tell you what, you save your blessing and use that extra little bit of compa ...[text shortened]... hate, his arrogance, his self righteous piety, blinded me to the truth.
Keep your blessing.
Look, if it turns out that the Bible is literally the word of God, my problem will not be with his words it will be with him SKIPPER
This is really good stuff Skipper. I really hear the conviction of your words and the strength of your humanity. I just love the raw honesty with which you debate. You remind me of myself in a way. I am immensly uncomfortable with the baby smashing OT God. So much so I don't think he exists to be honest. I think the OT God is incomplete and riddled with Jewish nationalism and bigotry. I am utterly convinced the Bible is not the "literal" word of God and that the NT is where it's at really. I sense you have been exposed to a form of religion which bears little resemblance to the example of Christ. I agree that sometimes the church is a poor advert for God and sometimes is a big advert for Atheism. What can I say ? I share your disillusionment with the church and religion (this is not a comment towards bofsteel) but I don't share your conclusion that therefore God is bunkum.
Interestingly ,you will not find anyone more condemning of the pious and self righteous religious people than Christ himself . Jesus was not a religious man. His hatred of hypocrisy and BS was immense. It makes me wonder if you are closer to God than you dare realise. I think sometimes Atheists are closer to God in their raw honesty than some Christians. I offer you no blessing , if I am right you are already blessed.
19 Mar 07
Originally posted by vistesdFair enough.
It was perhaps presumptuous of me to try to respond to WW’s opening question from within a paradigm in which I no longer live, despite the fact that I spent most of my life (till nearly the age of 50) there—I mean the Christian paradigm generally, not the particular Eastern Orthodox view I was presenting (and long before I began any project of deconstructio ...[text shortened]... ive. You believe that I am in error; I believe that you are in error. It’s as simple as that.
I would like to convince everyone that Jesus Christ is 'the way, the truth, and the life,' and, 'no one comes to the Father except through him,' but that is an unreasonable expectation. However, if I discern an untruth concerning the Lord, then I want to do my best to point it out. I'm not approaching our conversation from a self-righteous point-of-view and neither am I angry while I write, I'm simply testing all things against the word of God, without exception. If that ends up offending your or others' sensibilities, I can see that only as a good thing.
I myself don't condone the killing of children either, but then again, I'm not the Lord. He has commanded such and I can only assume that those so punsihed were an evil, idolatrous people who had dedicated their children to evil.
I trust that the bible is the true word of the Living God, and that God is just and righteous, and that His judgements are just and righteous. Who am I to question the Lord? Am I more righteous than Him? Certainly not, and neither do I have His omniscience regarding people.
I do believe you are in error, but it's nothing personal. We agree to disagree and that's fine with me.
God bless.
19 Mar 07
I've taken a step back for these few days, just watching this mess of constant bickering unfold, and I'm not exactly sure what to say, honestly...I still maintain my beliefs, and I guess I agree with ballsofsteel (at least on this one point) in that we will all have to agree to disagree...
BUT (saw that coming 🙂 ) I think we should do more than that...a short and sweet claim of momentary peace is not enough; I think as intelligent, (hopefully) compassionate human beings, not alone religious human beings, we should develop a tolerance (not an "okay I won't kill you for your beliefs" remark but an "I understand where you are coming from" remark) for one another on areas in which we disagree and there is no completely definitive answer...
That's all from me for now...
19 Mar 07
Originally posted by TheSkipperHear hear!
I curse you and call you a fool in front of a bunch of people and you bless me. Meanwhile, the book you tell me to read (which I have read extensively, with an open heart and mind, BTW) praises the smashing of babies against rocks (among a multitude of other despicable things). Tell you what, you save your blessing and use that extra little bit of compa ...[text shortened]... hate, his arrogance, his self righteous piety, blinded me to the truth.
Keep your blessing.
19 Mar 07
Originally posted by ballsofsteelYou would have been one of those guys that just stood there and watched the Nazis round the Jews up, wouldn't you?
I myself don't condone the killing of children either, but then again, I'm not the Lord. He has commanded such and I can only assume that those so punsihed were an evil, idolatrous people who had dedicated their children to evil.
Your God killed those, or ordered the deaths of those babies? Then he's one evil son of a gun and deserves to be resisted with everything anyone got.
