21 Jun 07
Originally posted by Marinkatombi was just bein silly, i dont think god will send you to hell even if he did exist; would you send ANYONE to hell? in my opinion, getting into hell is very hard and if you get into hell you must be an idiot
I look at it like this. If i was an all powerful God capable of creating the Universe, what use would i have for worship? If i catch a fly in my house and let it go free out of the window, do i expect it to pay homage? Of course i don't. I haven't completely ruled out the possibility that there is a God, what i have done is taken the choice to relieve my ...[text shortened]... I have long since rejected the idea of Heaven/Hell, this idea is a gloriously human frailty!
21 Jun 07
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomWhy would God create a Universe with all this life in and then spend the remaining time somewhere else? If i was the only thing in existence and i could create all this stuff i'd want some company!
i was just bein silly, i dont think god will send you to hell even if he did exist; would you send ANYONE to hell? in my opinion, getting into hell is very hard and if you get into hell you must be an idiot
21 Jun 07
Originally posted by Marinkatombhe did, he created adam for company. and he has company in heaven now
Why would God create a Universe with all this life in and then spend the remaining time somewhere else? If i was the only thing in existence and i could create all this stuff i'd want some company!
21 Jun 07
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomOk, so why didn't he just create Heaven? Why have an imperfect place for everyone to go to, just so you can pick the 'Good' ones to go to another place? Good is subjective, if I divert a river to give water to a village that has none, i am saving lives, but i am doing it at the expense of the other people who live downstream. I struggle to think it possible to live your entire life doing good, when everything has an equal and opposite effect.
he did, he created adam for company. and he has company in heaven now
Heaven is an over simplification of human desire. I want to live in a World that is pure and good just as much as the next man. To believe in heaven is to give up hope of achieving that here and now. 'Oh well, it's all out of my control, i'll just live a christian life and God will reward me.' Well i live a Christian life, but i don't need a golden carrot as an incentive. The story of Jesus is a beautiful and inspiring story, but one mustn't forget it is just a story! I've taken some really positive things from religion, but i am now rejecting it because of it's negative things. If that means i'm going to Hell, so be it, i'll be with all my friends in that case cos they don't believe in Heaven any more than i do.
21 Jun 07
Originally posted by MarinkatombIndeed there is. My point is really to JosephW since he is intending to read the book. I think we need to suggest others that are written with religious people as the intended audience since Dawkins shows too little empathy towards them and TGD is probably a fairly extreme example of this.
You are right, Dawkins shows little empathy for religion. However, he gives good reason not to. The point of the book is not so much to convert the religious to atheism, it is to convert Agnostics to atheism. There is a big difference!
--- Penguin.
21 Jun 07
Originally posted by PenguinHow would a religious appologist be better? Either you believe in it or you don't. Dawkins will not sound good to the religiously enclined, but he gives the case from a purely atheist perspective. What's wrong with that? The Bible says atheism is a sin, i don't take offense by that, why should a Christian care what Dawkins has to say about their faith unless they are already questioning it themselves?
Indeed there is. My point is really to JosephW since he is intending to read the book. I think we need to suggest others that are written with religious people as the intended audience since Dawkins shows too little empathy towards them and TGD is probably a fairly extreme example of this.
--- Penguin.
21 Jun 07
Just a word of warning to you, Marinka, strong belief in anything (atheism or theism) is a double edged sword. I applaud your pursuit of answers, I worry slightly about your zeal in finding them. Be careful what beliefs you build upon your new found concepts, they can race away from you just as easily as those of the theist.
21 Jun 07
Originally posted by StarrmanI don't always explain myself fully, i can't be bothered to be honest. If we were to have a conversation, you'd see that i'm not quite as ignorant on these matters as my posts imply. I'm really not interested in word play at all, i speak my mind and make no apology for it. I have no ZEAL and these concepts are far from new to me. Dawkins has simply removed that nagging thought that ultimately there must be some kind of intelligence behind it all, which is an incorrect assumption on my behalf, though not really one i chose to have in the first place..
Just a word of warning to you, Marinka, strong belief in anything (atheism or theism) is a double edged sword. I applaud your pursuit of answers, I worry slightly about your zeal in finding them. Be careful what beliefs you build upon your new found concepts, they can race away from you just as easily as those of the theist.
21 Jun 07
Originally posted by MarinkatombFair enough, I'm merely replying to the impression I got from your posts, nothing more.
I don't always explain myself fully, i can't be bothered to be honest. If we were to have a conversation, you'd see that i'm not quite as ignorant on these matters as my posts imply. I'm really not interested in word play at all, i speak my mind and make no apology for it. I have no ZEAL and these concepts are far from new to me. Dawkins has simply remov ...[text shortened]... correct assumption on my behalf, though not really one i chose to have in the first place..
21 Jun 07
Originally posted by MarinkatombHow would a religious appologist be better?
How would a religious appologist be better? Either you believe in it or you don't. Dawkins will not sound good to the religiously enclined, but he gives the case from a purely atheist perspective. What's wrong with that? The Bible says atheism is a sin, i don't take offense by that, why should a Christian care what Dawkins has to say about their faith unless they are already questioning it themselves?
A religious apologist would not be better. But an atheist who writes with more sympathy towards religion is more likely to be persuasive to theists.
--- Penguin.
21 Jun 07
Originally posted by Penguin'Sorry, i realise you've lived your life being misinformed by others and you're probably not going to like this, so i'll water it down so it tastes like Christianity, even though my aim is to dispel that very belief.'
[b]How would a religious appologist be better?
A religious apologist would not be better. But an atheist who writes with more sympathy towards religion is more likely to be persuasive to theists.
--- Penguin.[/b]
Doesn't make for good reading does it. The main reason most of these other works are not popularly acclaimed is for this very reason, they don't make a definite enough statement of their intentions. A deeply Religious Christian is looking for God in everything, even a book on atheism. Dawkins book is unique in that it really makes no apology for it's content. No matter how much you dislike what you're reading, you are reading a text that makes the atheist case and that case alone! He is worthy of respect in this regard, even if you do happen to disagree. Have you read it out of interest?
21 Jun 07
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Originally posted by MarinkatombPerspective is a wonderous thing. For example, if I were to save your life or give you life, what would be the natural repsonse? Get lost perhaps? I don't think so, yet we treat God worse than we would any human being. Would we treat our parents the way that we treat the Almighty? Do we not give our parents credit for helping to bring us into the world and revere them for raising us despite the hardship at times?
[b]I look at it like this. If i was an all powerful God capable of creating the Universe, what use would i have for worship?
I think worship is viewed as a duty rather than what comes naturally to a beliver. If one truly loves God and truly is appreciative of all that we have been GIVEN then praise is simply a natural response. I guess since it is apparent that you have no love for God or even believe that he exists worship would seem a bit odd, however, if I were to prove to you that he exists and that he created you, what say you? Would you say so much as thank you?