Thank God, i'm an atheist!

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
I didn't know that. I wonder what his thoughts were on evolution?

If you are interested, I know of a book that deals with faith and science in terms of the Big Bang and evolution. It is called, "Genesis and the Big Bang" by Gerald L. Schroeder. I think you might enjoy it.

Originally posted by whodey
If you are interested, I know of a book that deals with faith and science in terms of the Big Bang and evolution. It is called, "Genesis and the Big Bang" by Gerald L. Schroeder. I think you might enjoy it.

Actually i have a book lined up on that topic already (well, it's not strictly about the big bang but it covers it)...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/o/ASIN/0471419192/ref=s9_asin_title_1/[WORD TOO LONG]

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
I didn't know that. I wonder what his thoughts were on evolution?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre
I don't know his thought on evolution but certainly, like you now know, he knew that not everything on the bible was to be taken at face value.

Originally posted by Phuzudaka
If you wanna thank someone for being an Atheist, thank the Devil.

But he is already giving his soul to the devil he doesn't need to thank him as well. Besides you thank the person you are taking your soul away from not the person you are giving it too.

Originally posted by Penguin
No, it's a sign of a healthy thread when people will explain and apologise. The conversation could so easily have degenerated if JosephW had not realised that the reaction to his comment was an indication that the comment needed clarification.

I also think it is superb that JosephW and Marinkatomb are willing to read the literature of the other side. Howe ...[text shortened]... emely well though in The Blind Watchmaker.

This is a superb thread so far!

--- Penguin.

Ah, I meant no need to apologise for making a statement, or for deducing from a statement. Of course, when someone gets something wrong, or when they make a grand proclamation, they should apologise and explain, respectively.

Originally posted by whodey
Perspective is a wonderous thing. For example, if I were to save your life or give you life, what would be the natural repsonse? Get lost perhaps? I don't think so, yet we treat God worse than we would any human being. Would we treat our parents the way that we treat the Almighty? Do we not give our parents credit for helping to bring us into the world a ...[text shortened]... you that he exists and that he created you, what say you? Would you say so much as thank you?

IF he proves he exists, then I'll thank him.

Originally posted by whodey
I agree. After all, God does not force himself on anyone so what gives us the right? Are we better than God? If you ever find yourself coersed into a position of either unbelief or belief then know that God is not behind it, rather, man probably is. I think Christianity had its "dark period" in which it was thought that forcing what was percieved to be th ...[text shortened]... th down peoples throats was the answer. Unfortunatly, the lesson has not been learned by all.

Yes...the lesson is hard to learn!!!

Originally posted by twhitehead
But he is already giving his soul to the devil he doesn't need to thank him as well. Besides you thank the person you are taking your soul away from not the person you are giving it too.

You base your assertion that i am 'giving my soul to the devil' on scripture. I think this scripture is at best inaccurate, at worse a downright fabrication! What God would punish me for ignoring another man? If God wanted me to live by some code, he would give me his code in black and white. The Bible was not written by God, it wasn't even written by Jesus. You really need to try and look at this book impartially. I could go out tomorrow and become a priest, i could stand up in front of a congregation of some hundreds and make up a load of rubbish, would that be the word of God? No it wouldn't! Use a bit of intelligence, your absolute faith in the church is misplaced. By all means believe in God if you like, but don't preach about eternal damnation when the entire concept was introduced by men. If you disagree with this last statement, look into it a little...

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
You base your assertion that i am 'giving my soul to the devil' on scripture. I think this scripture is at best inaccurate, at worse a downright fabrication! What God would punish me for ignoring another man? If God wanted me to live by some code, he would give me his code in black and white. The Bible was not written by God, it wasn't even written by Je ...[text shortened]... t was introduced by men. If you disagree with this last statement, look into it a little...

whoa whoa there big lad,

Neither "Mr T" or the Penguinator are Xians. They're agreeing with you!

Originally posted by scottishinnz
whoa whoa there big lad,

Neither "Mr T" or the Penguinator are Xians. They're agreeing with you!

Hmm, you're right. Sorry fella, miss read your post. Comes from typing in forums while dodging boss... 😉

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
It's a Miracle! I have had an epiphany! For 28 years i have existed on this Planet and finally, i don't believe in God!

Having been born an innocent impressionable child, it wasn't long before i was sent to school to receive my education. Catholic School to be precise. From the age of 4 (i was the eldest in my year) i was taught the Gospels. I ...[text shortened]... finally realised you were me all along.

Alleluia!!

I've read a few testimonies from people who have lost their faith. All of them were raised Christian and have led fairly exemplary Christian lives, only to have their assurance pulled out from underneath them at some point. In these cases, I can't help but wonder if the 'faith' being lost wasn't itself based on mistaken suppositions to begin with; original false conceptualizations about what it is to have faith in God and live a Christian life. Perhaps these errant beliefs formed throughout childhood and carried into adulthood can sustain an outwardly pious life (reinforced by the expectations of friends and family), but in themselves can give no inward assurances and so never allow one to know what it is to be genuine. In short, a life lived without true conviction. Could it be that what you've experienced as a 'loss of faith' is really the loss of your mistaken suppositions about what faith in God is? Could a rediscovery be in order?

For myself, I was not raised to be a Christian. My mother let us decide for ourselves what we wanted to believe in. I did not become a Christian until I was in my mid-twenties, and I discovered faith in Christ without the expectation to do so. Just as you have expressed a newfound freedom in your recent realization, I felt a newfound freedom when I discovered for myself the hidden Jesus who had eluded me for so long. The reason I question your loss of faith is because, as the bible says, "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" (John 8:32). The truth will always set you free. The truth is not bondage. I believe that you are being set free from old ideas into a bigger world, and not necessarily one without God or faith.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I've read a few testimonies from people who have lost their faith. All of them were raised Christian and have led fairly exemplary Christian lives, only to have their assurance pulled out from underneath them at some point. In these cases, I can't help but wonder if the 'faith' being lost wasn't itself based on mistaken suppositions to begin with; orig ...[text shortened]... free from old ideas into a bigger world, and not necessarily one without God or faith.

And there again, maybe God just doesn't exist.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
And there again, maybe God just doesn't exist.

Or at least doesn't exist as we conceive him to... After all, if God is the creator of all things, yet is not any thing which he has created, then we can only know him as nothing (no thing) to begin with. Of course, then, God as we know him doesn't exist, because a God which we can conceive of cannot be the Creator. Genuine faith is honest, because it is the inward assurance of what we acknowledge we cannot see or understand, not what we 'know' through observable evidences. Marinkatomb's has expressed this inexplicable assurance despite the mounting evidence to the contrary, which is why I question whether he has really lost anything, except old ideas about God.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Or at least doesn't exist as we conceive him to... After all, if God is the creator of all things, yet is not any thing which he has created, then we can only know him as nothing (no thing) to begin with. Of course, then, God as we know him doesn't exist, because a God which we can conceive of cannot be the Creator. Genuine faith is honest, because it ...[text shortened]... y, which is why I question whether he has really lost anything, except old ideas about God.

And the moral of the story is, children,

"With a crap definition, a man can defend even the most untenable of positions."

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I've read a few testimonies from people who have lost their faith. All of them were raised Christian and have led fairly exemplary Christian lives, only to have their assurance pulled out from underneath them at some point. In these cases, I can't help but wonder if the 'faith' being lost wasn't itself based on mistaken suppositions to begin with; orig ...[text shortened]... free from old ideas into a bigger world, and not necessarily one without God or faith.

You make an interesting point here, i can see you've put thought into it and express it without prejudice which i respect. Let me try to answer, i apologise if my reply lacks the elegance yours displays.

Firstly i'll take up your point regarding family and the faith 'being passed down' (i know you didn't use these words exactly, but they seem to sum it up).

My family are not religious. This is important to realise. I don't know how things work in the States, but here in the UK, Christian schools perform better than non-religious schools (or at least they did when i was of schooling age, i'm not to sure if that is still true today, perhaps that would make a good separate debate...) When my parents sent me to this school it was to receive a good education, not to bring me up in a specifically Religious way, though they had no objections to religion. My mother was Catholic (technically she still is but hasn't been to church in years other than to sing in a choir which is primarily a social thing). My father was C of E, though to my knowledge never attended church in his life.

This, i think, will throw a different light on things. Far from fulfilling my parents expectations by believing in God, it actually came as somewhat of a surprise to them. In hindsight this is quite funny, perhaps they didn't realise what effect a church school would have on a child? Either way the result was that i believed in God.

You mention at the beginning of your post that you know of a few Christians who have lost their faith by 'having their assurances pulled out from under them' but you didn't mention why those assurances were removed. You'll forgive me for observing, but your belief that their faith was somehow not based on correct observance of what religion actually is has perhaps distracted you from something important, is there such a thing as a correct way to see God? Look around you, the World is full of religions. There are people of faith all around the World who practise their faith in God in dramatically different ways, are they all wrong? I don't think God would really mind how belief is expressed, assuming he desires worship at all.

Also, taking this assumption as true has the knock on effect of questioning the faith of all believers who were brought into the church from birth. Take all the Saints who have lived since Christ. A massive proportion of them would have been christened at birth, is their faith based on correct interpretation of God? The church certainly thinks so, which brings me on to my argument...

The only 'evidence' that God exists at all is presented by the Church. We all receive our faith directly from these men, whether they are your local priest or the Bible itself, it is all the work of men. God is conspiciously absent.

'But God sent his only son to forgive the sins of mankind, how can you reject Jesus's love?'

You'll forgive me for putting words in your mouth, but this argument has and probably will appear any moment. If God sent his only son to Earth to forgive mankind's sins, then he has directly intervened in mankind's development. Why then hang up the phone? Was it because we killed Jesus? If that is the case then it would explain his subsequent absence. I can think of no other reason why he would reveal himself to so many people (Mary, Mosses, Abraham, to name but a few) yet once Jesus is crucified....nothing. Sure, many people have claimed to have been visited/contacted by God, but these experiences are not uncommon in non-religious people!

I myself have had a deeply profound experience. Now, i hope you will not view me with prejudice for revealing this, i believe the only way to get at the truth is by being 100% honest but at the same time i realise that in doing so it could prejudice my argument...

Around the age of 23 I went to a party in a forest in Kent. At this time there was a loop hole in the law in the UK that permitted the sale of magic mushrooms (i know what you're thinking but run with me here...) I ate two mushroom caps (no stalks) so the dose was relatively low, but needless to say i had an intense 'spiritual' experience (one of many but this was by far the most profound). I don't know how familiar you are with the concept of Astral projection, but that is the best way i can come up with to describe this experience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_projection).

I don't really ascribe to the 'belief' that is expressed in the above article, but the experience i had amounts to the same thing. My comprehension of the real World was completely removed and i 'saw' myself flying over clouds with mountain tops peaking through. In the distance i could see a large mountain, much bigger than the rest which i was heading toward. Upon reaching it i met the Buddha, who was animated and conversed with me (though in a language i didn't understand). Now, this experience was brought on by a drug! I in no way shape or form give you this information to try and say that i somehow met God, or had a religious experience, it was not! (Though it none the less filled me with a wonder and respect for nature that remains with me to this day and thus was an extremely important personal experience that changed my life for the better).

When i read or hear of people experiences of 'meeting God,' it always reminds me of this moment. I have first hand experience, in the most profound way, of how my brain can be fooled, or rather, how my brain can fool me! I remember as a child hearing the stories of revelations. I had no way of knowing whether these experiences people were having were real or imaginary, now i do.

When i think about someone who has had a meeting with God, i have to ask myself, what is more probably? Did they meet God? Or did they imagine it? I'm sorry to say that i lean heavily on the side of imagination.

When we consider that three of the most practised religions on Earth (Christianity/Judaism/Islam) are derived from the revelations of Abraham, i am sceptical.

Some people may be tempted to argue that Genesis is not so much at the for front of religious belief these days. Religion has moved on, etc...

Without Genesis, would there be any Christianity? Probably not. Would Jesus have conversed with all those Holy men, thrown tradesmen of the temple steps, etc... No, because without Abraham there would have been no temple and there would be no holy men either!

I now refuse to put my belief in the scriptures. To be honest, i rejected them years ago now. Without these testaments, that are written and presented by man, we would not know of any God. I cannot put my faith in their experiences as i have had them myself and understand them to be a trick of the mind. I need a reason to believe something and religion no longer provides me with any reason. Science, for all it's inaccuracies, does! Sure people get it wrong, but they eventually get it right. Religion starts with 'right' and slowly but surely gets it more and more wrong.