22 Jun 07
2 edits
Originally posted by MarinkatombI respect your right to believe in whatever you'd like. And I don't say that condescendingly. I am under no illusion that the faith which I have in Jesus Christ is not based entirely on the reliability of scripture. All of my hope rests in the word of God. I have never seen God, or Jesus, face to face; nor have I seen an angel, or even a ghost, as long as I've lived. Neither have I heard the audible voice of God speaking to me, as so many Christians have. Nevertheless, my hope rests in the word of God.
You make an interesting point here, i can see you've put thought into it and express it without prejudice which i respect. Let me try to answer, i apologise if my reply lacks the elegance yours displays.
Firstly i'll take up your point regarding family and the faith 'being passed down' (i know you didn't use these words exactly, but they seem to sum i 'right' and slowly but surely gets it more and more wrong.
I have dabbled in lysergic acid and psilocybin mushrooms, and have observed the superficial depths which those chemically induced highs can absorb one in. Clearly, perception can be fooled and is not reliable. I appreciate science, and the fruit of humanity's curiosity (e.g. the theory of relativity, quantum physics, etc.). We are an amazing species, with unfathomable riches of knowledge and imagination, and even after being born-again I still find no enmity toward Darwin, nor his theories. Nevertheless, my hope rests in the word of God.
I've once considered myself a Buddhist, an Emersonian Transcendentalist, and even read every book by Pete Townsend's guru, Meher Baba. Heck, I used to not believe in God at all. I used to believe in nothing except myself and nature and art. I've seen that the world is full of mind-boggling diversity, yet my hope now rests in the bible regardless. That hope of being loved by God unconditionally because of Jesus Christ's sacrifice (as you pointed out), and of receiving his blessings and favor in this life as I walk humbly before him with a clean conscience.
All this based upon a simple faith and nothing more. Not based on works, nor performance, nor striving for knowledge, nor gaining enlightenment--but based upon a faith so simple that it's maddening, especially for the intellectual (such as myself) who needs so badly to grasp everything. Religion can get in the way of finding this simple faith, too, and actually living it, since religion is mostly bondage to ritual observances. I pity those who escape such bondage by throwing the baby Jesus out with the bathwater.
My point is, don't give up on Jesus just because the whole cry of the world is against him, even if the evidence against him continues to pile up, because God's truth does not rise or fall based on the evidence against it, nor the opinions of men contrary to it. The truth of God's word is demonstrated through faith. Simple faith.
22 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasWow. You’ve sure hit your stride. You keep up with this kind of eloquence and you’re a shoe-in in future sermon competitions! 😉 (Excellent, excellent job on the first one, by the way.)
I respect your right to believe in whatever you'd like. And I don't say that condescendingly. I am under no illusion that the faith which I have in Jesus Christ is not based entirely on the reliability of scripture. All of my hope rests in the word of God. I have never seen God, or Jesus, face to face; nor have I seen an angel, or even a ghost, as lo ntrary to it. The truth of God's word is demonstrated through faith. Simple faith.
The only point of disagreement I have is with your last two sentences. And this goes, not to the statements, per se (depending on how one understands them), but to the implied exclusivity of Christianity.
I’m not trying to “mind-read” you here, but basing this on our past discussions, and how you have read the scriptural claims. My response, (not particularly well done, I think) is in the “aside” to my last post in the dismal “truth versus trueness” thread.*
I once threw at you a kind of “evangelistic” “sermon” using the Tao Te Ching, if you recall. Part of your response was “Point well taken.” My response to that had to be that I also have to take that point on the other side of things. That has led me—e.g., in some of what I was trying to say in the “truth versus trueness” thread—to try to understand the epistemological limits of my own position.
I don’t do much confessional stuff on here—when I have in the past it has generally turned out badly. And you yourself know how difficult it is to do without writing your whole auto-biography—everything seems, and probably is, relevant.
My “transformative experiences” were not tied to Christian understanding (which is interesting, because I was a diligent practicing Christian at the time; I have also known people like yourself for whom it went the other way). My transformative experiences were not “tied” to alternative religious paradigms either; which is not to say they are non-religious. Just as you trust the intervention of the Holy Spirit, I must trust that. I hope you can read between the lines here a bit.
I think you and I are reaching the point where we both understand the fundamental impasse between our viewpoints, even as we are willing to engage in debate vis-à-vis “side issues.” That is good. I never mistake your strong stand for “rigid thinking.”
*BTW, by dismal, I am referring to my own error in framing the discussion.
22 Jun 07
Originally posted by MarinkatombCongratulations. 🙂
It's a Miracle! I have had an epiphany! For 28 years i have existed on this Planet and finally, i don't believe in God!
There is no evidence of the supernatural.
There is no such thing as a soul.
There is no afterlife.
When stripped of selfish desires and preconceptions, we are simply consciousness.
22 Jun 07
Originally posted by WhompingNomadAnd the same is true of the FLying Spaghetti Monster, the Giant Celestial Teapot, invisible pink flying unicorns, leprechauns and pixies.
There may be no evidence of a God, but there is no evidence that there isn't.
Perhaps you feel we should also believe in them, since the evidence, or lack thereof, is equally compelling.
22 Jun 07
Originally posted by WhompingNomadThere is plenty of evidence that there isn't and even some that there is, it is all about whether that evidence is compelling to you or not. It is also quite important what you choose to include in your definition of the word 'God'.
There may be no evidence of a God, but there is no evidence that there isn't.
22 Jun 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadI agree there is plenty of evidence that the God of the bible doesn't exist, or if he does, he's seriously messed up.
There is plenty of evidence that there isn't and even some that there is, it is all about whether that evidence is compelling to you or not. It is also quite important what you choose to include in your definition of the word 'God'.
22 Jun 07
Originally posted by YugaThere is no evidence of the supernatural.
Congratulations. 🙂
There is no evidence of the supernatural.
There is no such thing as a soul.
There is no afterlife.
When stripped of selfish desires and preconceptions, we are simply consciousness.
There is no such thing as a soul.
There is no afterlife.
Yes. In the minds of some.
22 Jun 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzIf you embrace the Chaotic paradigm, you may invoke all these entities! You may find, though, that some have more psychic kick than others. (Once you're done, you simply stop believing in them...)
And the same is true of the FLying Spaghetti Monster, the Giant Celestial Teapot, invisible pink flying unicorns, leprechauns and pixies.
Perhaps you feel we should also believe in them, since the evidence, or lack thereof, is equally compelling.
22 Jun 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzAnd there are many people in this world whose perceptions have been seriously warped by the degenerate effect of sin.
I agree there is plenty of evidence that the God of the bible doesn't exist, or if he does, he's seriously messed up.
22 Jun 07
Originally posted by PhuzudakaAnd you have no way of knowing whether you are one of them because if you are then your perceptions are seriously warped! You don't even know if the perception you were expressing in the post is a genuine perception or a seriously warped perception! You don't even know whether it is really sin that is doing the warping or whether that too is a warped perception.
And there are many people in this world whose perceptions have been seriously warped by the degenerate effect of sin.
22 Jun 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasListen, i have love in my heart brother! It's with me from the moment i wake up, to the moment i go to sleep!! If there is a God, then he's right here, in my heart!! But it didn't get in there from going to church, no sir. It didn't get there from reading the bible (though it's a great read, along with a heap of other literature). My experiences of faith have only given me doubt. Am i a sinner? Have my sins closed the door to heaven? Should i be living a more richeous life?
I respect your right to believe in whatever you'd like. And I don't say that condescendingly. I am under no illusion that the faith which I have in Jesus Christ is not based entirely on the reliability of scripture. All of my hope rests in the word of God. I have never seen God, or Jesus, face to face; nor have I seen an angel, or even a ghost, as lo ...[text shortened]... ntrary to it. The truth of God's word is demonstrated through faith. Simple faith.
I can see from your post that you found this love in your heart when you joined the Church. Good for you! My experiences are almost exactly the reverse, the church only ever fostered doubt and fear in me.
I don't need the words of men to unlock this energy that resides in us all, it is too pure to be watered down by words. The Universe and everything in it, is pure energy. You, me, this forum, the plug hole in my sink, everything. This is not faith, it is fact. I use my conscience as my moral guide and i'm not so arrogant to believe that i get it right all of the time (or any of the time for that matter).
You could say i've out grown the church.
Heresy? Maybe it is, but that's where i'm at. You can pass the buck onto a preacher if you like, if it helps then all power to you! I no longer have a reason to believe in all this stuff, my 'beliefs' reside in the tangible. If there is a God who is all knowing, he knows my intentions are pure. The church is not pure in my eyes. Do i have a spiritual outlook on life? Yes i do, but it has nothing to do with God or Jesus, it has everything to do with Nature and the awe it inspires in me. There is little difference between me and a faithful christian, the only real difference is my thoughts are guided purely by reason. I don't believe in a God.
22 Jun 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadEveryone who is still under the power of sin knows it. Those who have been slaves to sin and have experienced freedom also know it.
And you have no way of knowing whether you are one of them because if you are then your perceptions are seriously warped! You don't even know if the perception you were expressing in the post is a genuine perception or a seriously warped perception! You don't even know whether it is really sin that is doing the warping or whether that too is a warped perception.
22 Jun 07
Originally posted by PhuzudakaLook man, did Jesus ever chastise people? I can't remember him doing any of this stuff from my childhood readings (my memory migh be selective here, it's been a while). What gives you the right? The Bible, by and by, has a positive message. Why do people get so damned richeous about it. Lets face it, when Jesus came to Earth, everyone would have been a sinner, right? No one was a christian yet. Did he go around with fire and brimstone? No! Give it a rest!!
Everyone who is still under the power of sin knows it. Those who have been slaves to sin and have experienced freedom also know it.
22 Jun 07
Originally posted by MarinkatombDon't bother, some people just fail to realise that it's not the messenger that's important, it's the message. He's to concerned with spreading the word to actually live it, don't waste your time on him. Lets face it, if Jesus came back he'd be ashamed of people like him, to think he died so that others could breed vengance, hellfire and retribution...
Look man, did Jesus ever chastise people? I can't remember him doing any of this stuff from my childhood readings (my memory migh be selective here, it's been a while). What gives you the right? The Bible, by and by, has a positive message. Why do people get so damned richeous about it. Lets face it, when Jesus came to Earth, everyone would have been a s ...[text shortened]... ht? No one was a christian yet. Did he go around with fire and brimstone? No! Give it a rest!!