Originally posted by robbie carrobieI said Rev. 22:13. You cannot resist muddying up the truth.
I quoted the New world translation at the outset. Here it is again,
(Revelation 22:13) “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
And still you refuse to admit that the Bible repeats itself for the purpose of making a concept clear. It was true in Colossians 1:15-18, and it is true here.
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." -- Revelation 22:13, KJV
It cannot be any more clear. I'm done, I'm not beating my head against the brick wall any more today. But then, your man-made dogma is more important to you than getting the Bible right. Because you have to use man-made scripture to support man-made dogma in order to drag others to perdition with you. The Lake of Fire awaits all false prophets. I pray to God that you see the truth and that you have the discernment to recognize it, before it's too late.
The Alpha and the Omega
These are the names of the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet and are used as a title three times in the book of Revelation. The additional occurrence of this phrase in the King James rendering of Revelation 1:11, however, does not receive support from some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in many modern translations.
While many commentators apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to Jehovah God. The first verse of Revelation shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. (Re 22:8) Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God [“Jehovah God,” NW], who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God. In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.”
The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.—Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.
The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation; verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John, verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus, the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,” and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself. “The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God. The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.”
The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.—Compare Isa 44:6.
courtesy of Jehovahs witnesses
Barnes commentary
I am Alpha and Omega - These are the first and the last letters of the Greek alphabet, and denote properly the first and the last. So in Revelation 22:13, where the two expressions are united, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." So in Revelation 1:17, the speaker says of himself, "I am the first and the last." Among the Jewish rabbis it was common to use the first and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet to denote the whole of anything, from beginning to end. Thus, it is said, "Adam transgressed the whole law, from 'Aleph to Taw " "Abraham kept the whole law, from 'Aleph to Taw " The language here is what would properly denote "eternity" in the being to whom it is applied, and could be used in reference to no one but the true God. It means that he is the beginning and the end of all things; that he was at the commencement, and will be at the close; and it is thus equivalent to saying that he has always existed, and that he will always exist. Compare Isaiah 41:4, "I the Lord, the first, and with the last"; Isaiah 44:6, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God"; Isaiah 48:12, "I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." There can be no doubt that the language here would be naturally understood as implying divinity, and it could be properly applied to no one but the true God. The obvious interpretation here would be to apply this to the Lord Jesus; for:
(a) it is he who is spoken of in the verses preceding, and
(b) there can be no doubt that the same language is applied to him in Revelation 1:11.
As there is, however, a difference of reading in this place in the Greek text, and as it cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here, this cannot be adduced with propriety as a proof-text to demonstrate his divinity. Many mss., instead of "Lord," kurios, read "God," Theos and this reading is adopted by Griesbach, Tittman, and Hahn, and is now regarded as the correct reading. There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such, since the introduction of a reference to him would not be inappropriate to his manifest design. Besides, a portion of the language used here, "which is, and was, and is to come," is what would more naturally suggest a reference to God as such, than to the Lord Jesus Christ. See Revelation 1:4. The object for which this passage referring to the "first and the last - to him who was, and is, and is to come," is introduced here evidently is, to show that as he was clothed with omnipotence, and would continue to exist through all ages to come as he had existed in all ages past, there could be no doubt about his ability to execute all which it is said he would execute.
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There are three references in scripture to the Alpha and the Omega
(Revelation 1:8) “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty*.”
*“The Almighty.” Greek, ho Pantokrator; Latin, Omnipotens, Hebrew 'El Shaddai, “God Almighty”
Clearly the reference here is to the father,
The reference is to God the Almoghty who is the one coming on the clouds as the Son of Man.
"Behold He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him. Yes, amen.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:7,8)
The most immediate indication of who is speaking and why is verse 7, Christ is coming with the clouds. And those who pierced Him and mourn are the Israelite tribes of the Good Land. This passage is definitely a reference back to Zechariah 12:9-10.
Zechariah 12:9-10 - "And in that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. (v.9)
And I [Jehovah] will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look upon Me; whom they have pierced; and they will wail over Him with the wailing as for an only son and cry bitterly over Him with bitter crying as for a firstborn son." (v.10)
The Apostle John sees this vision and writes of it in Revelation chapter one. Every eye will see Christ coming and even the Jewish tribes of the Holy Land who pierced Him when they cried out for Him to be crucified some two millennium plus earlier.
It is every eye in the Holy Land in the Middle East who shall behold Him coming. Whether every eye all over the planet sees this, I do not know. But "and all the tribes of the LAND will mourn over Him ..." (Rev. 1:7) refers to the Israelites tribes of Zechariah's prophecy who pierced Jehovah God and will eventually recognize that and mourn for Him.
" ... and they will look upon ME [Jehovah] whom they have pierced; and they will wail over Him (Jehovah as a Man - the Messiah and Son of God) with a wailing as for an only son and cry bitterly over Him ..."
Very logically therefore, God Almighty adds His own seal to the vision of John in the next verse -
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty" (v.8)
Of course the previous verse 7 has indicating that He is COMING - "Behold He comes with the clouds ..."
Jehovah God, Christ never referred to himself as Almighty God and no one ever addressed him as Almighty God.
There are many many names for God in the Old Testament. It is not at all necessary that we have a specific New Testament passage where Jesus refers to Himself by that specific name.
If one utilizes this as a criteria then he can also insist that everywhere in the Old Testament it is mandatory that God use each and every name in every passage to "prove" that the Bible is speaking of the same Person.
Saying "Jesus did not refer to Himself as El Shadai or Jehovah Jira or Jehovah Nissa or several other of the names associated for God in the Tanach is a faulty test.
The scheme and concept of beginning and end is expressed in a number of different ways.
Alpha and Omega in meaning is reflected in the phrase "the Beginning and the End" or "The First and the Last" . And it is definitely Jesus as the Son of Man who says that He is the First and the Last in verses 17.
"And when I [John] saw Him [one like the Son of Man] , I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear, I am the First and the Last ..." (v.17)
The One coming on the clouds is God as a man.
The One putting His right hand on John comforting him is also God as a man. So the Trinity is a realistic revelation from the Bible of God's nature.
There is a prophetic reference in Isaiah to a mighty god, but its a different word entirely and simply means a powerful spiritual entity.
The mighty God is also Jehovah.
The 1901 American Standard Bible, formerly used by the Watchtower, definitely said that Jehovah was the Mighty God -
" ... the great, the mighty God, Jehovah of hosts is his name ... "( Jeremiah 23:18 1901 ASV)
The Almighty God Jehovah is also the Mighty God Jehovah.
(Revelation 21:5-7) And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.” And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free. Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.
It doesn't matter. The phrase "Alpha and Omega" amounts to the same truth as "the First and the Last" which amounts to the same truth as "the Beginning and the End" .
And though there is distinction between Father and Son and Holy Spirit there is no separation for Each lives in the Other.
Hebrews 1:13 speaking of the Son of God also refers to the children that God has given to Him -
" ... He is not ashamed to call them brothers, Saying, 'I will declare Your name to My brothers; ... And again, 'I will trust in Him' And again, 'Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me.' " (See Hebrews 1:11-13)
That is all the time I am spending on this today.
Originally posted by sonshipThe reference is to God the Almoghty who is the one coming on the clouds as the Son of Man.
[quote] There are three references in scripture to the Alpha and the Omega
(Revelation 1:8) “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty*.”
*“The Almighty.” Greek, ho Pantokrator; Latin, Omnipotens, Hebrew 'El Shaddai, “God Almighty”
Clearly the reference here is to the father, [/quot ...[text shortened]... as given Me.' " (See Hebrews 1:11-13)
That is all the time I am spending on this today.[/b]
nonsense
At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be “the first and the last,” which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1)
Similarly because the Alpha and the Omega is said to be coming and in like manner so is the Christ there is absolutely no basis and I repeat no basis for concluding that they are the same entity. Barnes states as much in his commentary,
Besides, a portion of the language used here, "which is, and was, and is to come," is what would more naturally suggest a reference to God as such, than to the Lord Jesus Christ. See Revelation 1:4. - Barnes
but its just like a trinitarian to try to impose a bias on scripture where none exists in the text.
Integrity required!
I would just like to point out to the reader the scurrilous and underhanded tactics employed by trinitarians,
First we have a blatant interpolation not found in any of the earliest manuscripts, King James version and New King James version as proffered by Hinds and advocated by Suzzianne on the basis that we were too dumb to notice.
Secondly we have other interpolations, namely that the one pierced is Jehovah, not found in the actual text nor explicitly implied, inserted either by Jaywill or his translators
Thirdly at Revelation 22:12, Todays English Version inserts the name Jesus, so the reference to Alpha and Omega in verse 13 is made to appear to apply to him. But the name Jesus does not appear there in Greek, and other translations do not include it.
This is the kind of deviant skulduggery that we are up against, never the less, I remind those persons guilty of these impositions what the book of Revelation itself states,
(Revelation 22:18, 19) If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; nd if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.
Now if you are willing to repent I will hear your confessions.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I would just like to point out to the reader the scurrilous and underhanded tactics employed by trinitarians,
First we have a blatant interpolation not found in any of the earliest manuscr...[text shortened]...m the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.
Now if you are willing to repent I will hear your confessions.
(Revelation 22:18, 19) If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; nd if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.
Now if you are willing to repent I will hear your confessions.
What a humble and contrite heart!
Originally posted by yoctobyteHave you added to the words of scripture? employed skulduggery in your reasoning? interpolated verses? assigned to Jesus values not explicit in scripture?(Revelation 22:18, 19) If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; nd if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.
Now if y ...[text shortened]... are willing to repent I will hear your confessions.
What a humble and contrite heart!
If you have a confession to make my son, ill hear it now.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieCan you explain how the archangel Michael is the alpha and omega and/or the first and the last?
Have you added to the words of scripture? employed skulduggery in your reasoning? interpolated verses? assigned to Jesus values not explicit in scripture?
If you have a confession to make my son, ill hear it now.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI am not your son, but i do have a serious question for you. You speak of adding or taken away from the word. Why is it that JW such as yourself and others use a bible version other than NWT when discussing things of the God in this forum? At different times? Your assertions and chastisements of adding and/or taking away from the word seem hypocritical? Or is it just me?
Have you added to the words of scripture? employed skulduggery in your reasoning? interpolated verses? assigned to Jesus values not explicit in scripture?
If you have a confession to make my son, ill hear it now.
Why not stick to NWT Only, all the time. If the others are corrupted or biased?
Just wondering.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou want others to confess, while you seem oblivious to the fact that you need to confess to yourself that you are following a cult led by false prophets and teachers.
I would just like to point out to the reader the scurrilous and underhanded tactics employed by trinitarians,
First we have a blatant interpolation not found in any of the earliest manuscripts, King James version and New King James version as proffered by Hinds and advocated by Suzzianne on the basis that we were too dumb to notice.
Secondly w ...[text shortened]... written about in this scroll.
Now if you are willing to repent I will hear your confessions.
Originally posted by yoctobytesorry my bad I assumed you had a sense of humour.
I am not your son, but i do have a serious question for you. You speak of adding or taken away from the word. Why is it that JW such as yourself and others use a bible version other than NWT when discussing things of the God in this forum? At different times? Your assertions and chastisements of adding and/or taking away from the word seem hypocritical ...[text shortened]... not stick to NWT Only, all the time. If the others are corrupted or biased?
Just wondering.
Why use a different version? two reasons
1. There can be no legitimate claims of bias if more than one translation is utilised.
2. Different translations bring out different flavours and nuances of the original text.
3.A comparison can be made and errors, interpolations and bias can be readily identified.
4. No one has claimed all others are corrupted, your assertion is therefore a logical fallacy, a so called, straw man argument.
Originally posted by RJHindsFrom the guy that has just been caught red handed proffering a 'doctored Bible', full of interpolations and verses not in the earliest manuscripts, I don't think we shall be taking any lesson from you.
You want others to confess, while you seem oblivious to the fact that you need to confess to yourself that you are following a cult led by false prophets and teachers.