09 Oct 14
FMF ~ At the Eden thread this is what you claimed I said here at this thread:
Originally posted by FMF
You claimed that the Bible was not evidence supporting Christian doctrine when clearly it is. Was this one of those situations you call a "draw"?
I'll take some time today to look through this thread to find where you might have seen me making this claim. I suspect you simply took one of your own loaded questions and magically transformed it into a "claim" made by me. But in the interest of fairness, I'll reserve judgement on that suspicion until I get around to looking through all of the relevant messages.
10 Oct 14
Originally posted by lemon limeWe shall see if you get back to us.
I'll take some time today to look through this thread to find where you might have seen me making this claim. I suspect you simply took one of your own loaded questions and magically transformed it into a "claim" made by me. But in the interest of fairness, I'll reserve judgement on that suspicion until I get around to looking through all of the relevant messages.
Originally posted by FMFHere it is. It seems you ignored my explanation of why I wasn't going to answer your question the way it was worded. I'll reprint my response to your question here so that you can ignore it again:
We shall see if you get back to us.
"Do you believe a textbook on any subject you might happen to pick up and read is evidence of any claim you might find expressed in that textbook?"
"Since when is a claim (any claim) evidence of the claim itself? How can words in a book be evidence of anything other than being evidence of a book containing words? The problem I have with many (if not most) of the questions asked of me by atheists agnostics or theists [define 'theist'] are the flaws I find in the questions themselves."
"Do you believe the Bible is supposed to be evidence of what the Bible claims, or are you trying to tell me I'm supposed to view the Bible itself as evidence of what the Bible says?"
"Do you really not see the flaw in your question, or are you perhaps presuming something you would not presume when looking at any other topic? Think about it... is a textbook on physics proof or evidence of what you read in that textbook? Of course not, so why are you posing that sort of question for me to answer? I didn't need to throw logic and reason out the window to believe as I do, but for some reason you guys will consistently ignore reason and logic when formulating questions for Christians to answer."
"So don't expect me to answer dumb questions that wouldn't fly anywhere else and on any other topic. The Bible is a book. A book is not a supernatural object. The Bible is not God. A book (any book) cannot be evidence of whatever claim is found in that book. Seriously dude, just how hard can this concept be for you or your cohorts to understand?"
And here is my response to divegeester not asking, but telling me that I don't accept the Bible as being the word of God...
"Don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing the Bible in regard to the importance of what it communicates or what can be learned from it. But from my perspective, my own unique and personal perspective, the Bible alone cannot get anyone in touch with God or cause anyone to believe in His existence. So no, by itself and with no other experience or consideration I do not believe the Bible alone can be evidence of the Bible... The ink has no supernatural properties, the paper the ink rests on has no supernatural properties, the binding has no supernatural properties, etc etc etc etc etc..."
"If I saw a telephone for the very first time in my life, didn't know what it was or what it did, and then someone told me I could use it to talk with another person hundreds of miles away, I would not believe it. Would you? I don't know about you, but for me to believe this I would need some evidence of this miraculous talking device actually doing what I was told it could do, and not just because someone told me about it."
By the way, what may have tripped the two of you up is if you were expecting to see pre-programmed answers to your questions. If you only want to see yes or no answers to poorly worded and oversimplified questions then you should expect to be disappointed.
10 Oct 14
Originally posted by lemon limeFor the sake of clarity could you construct a question, not badly worded or
If you only want to see yes or no answers to poorly worded and oversimplified questions then you should expect to be disappointed.
oversimplified, to which you would answer "yes" or "no" so that others may
better understand your position?
10 Oct 14
Originally posted by wolfgang59Clarity doesn't seem to be a premium here.
For the sake of clarity could you construct a question, not badly worded or
oversimplified, to which you would answer "yes" or "no" so that others may
better understand your position?
But perhaps you could construct such a question yourself, in order to clarify the implied point of your question?
are we having fun yet?
10 Oct 14
Originally posted by lemon limeYou were chiding others for not being able to do something which
Clarity doesn't seem to be a premium here.
But perhaps you could construct such a question yourself, in order to clarify the implied point of your question?
are we having fun yet?
you clearly cannot do yourself. You have made yourself appear
foolish (again) and wasted an opportunity to get your point across.
You sad little man.
10 Oct 14
1 edit
Originally posted by lemon limeOriginally posted by divegeester
Here it is. It seems you ignored my explanation of why I wasn't going to answer your question the way it was worded. I'll reprint my response to your question here so that you can ignore it again:
"Do you believe a textbook on any subject you might happen to pick up and read is evidence of any claim you might find expressed in that textbook?"
"Since ...[text shortened]... answers to poorly worded and oversimplified questions then you should expect to be disappointed.
Sorry to butt in but isn't what he said; FMF said he "lost confidence in the Bible as evidence to support the claims that Christians make about their God figure and about Jesus Christ."
Besides, as a Christian yourself, do you not accept the word of God (the Bible) as evidence to support the Christian gospel, doctrine and way of life?
Originally posted by lemon lime
No, I don't. I didn't accept that before I believed in God and I still don't accept it.
10 Oct 14
Originally posted by wolfgang59LOL
You were chiding others for not being able to do something which
you clearly cannot do yourself. You have made yourself appear
foolish (again) and wasted an opportunity to get your point across.
You sad little man.
yes, I'm feeling soooooo sad right now. :'(
10 Oct 14
Originally posted by FMFTaking that out of context was cute, but get real. I was rejecting your definition of the word 'evidence'. I repeatedly explained that I do not accept anything as evidence that isn't actually evidence. If you simply tell me about something, that is not evidence of the thing you are telling me about... do you get it now?
Originally posted by divegeester
[b]Sorry to butt in but isn't what he said; FMF said he "lost confidence in the Bible as evidence to support the claims that Christians make about their God figure and about Jesus Christ."
Besides, as a Christian yourself, do you not accept the word of God (the Bible) as evidence to support the Christian gospel, ...[text shortened]...
[b]No, I don't. I didn't accept that before I believed in God and I still don't accept it.[/b]
The Bible is a book, and you were essentially asking me if the Bible is evidence of what the Bible says. Really? Do you believe everything you read just because it shows up in print? Is it a sin to not believe everything you see in print?
Do you really not see the problem with this? Is this why you lost your faith so easily, because it was based on you wanting to believe, rather than going to all the trouble of seeking and finding out for yourself?
10 Oct 14
Originally posted by lemon limeIf you do not accept the word of God (the Bible) as evidence to support the Christian gospel, doctrine and way of life, then what evidence do you have that Jesus rose from the dead? How can anyone possibly be a Christian without believing the evidence about Christ presented in the Bible?
Taking that out of context was cute, but get real. I was rejecting your definition of the word 'evidence'. I repeatedly explained that I do not accept anything as evidence that isn't actually evidence. If you simply tell me about something, that is not evidence of the thing you are telling me about... do you get it now?
The Bible is a book, and you wer ...[text shortened]... ng[/i] to believe, rather than going to all the trouble of seeking and finding out for yourself?
10 Oct 14
Originally posted by lemon limeSo do you or don't you accept the word of God (the Bible) as evidence to support the Christian gospel, doctrine and way of life?
I repeatedly explained that I do not accept anything as evidence that isn't actually evidence. If you simply tell me about something, that is not evidence of the thing you are telling me about...
10 Oct 14
Originally posted by lemon limeNo, we weren't asking that. We were quite clear. divegeester and I were asking if the Bible is evidence that supports the Christian gospel, doctrine and way of life. You said no.
The Bible is a book, and you were essentially asking me if the Bible is evidence of what the Bible says.
10 Oct 14
Originally posted by lemon limeI went "to all the trouble of seeking and finding out" for many, many years, and my faith was strong. However, I lost my faith in the credibility of the Bible. As I am sure we can agree: there is no Christianity ~ or Christian beliefs ~ without the Bible.
Is this why you lost your faith so easily, because it was based on you wanting to believe, rather than going to all the trouble of seeking and finding out for yourself?