05 Aug 12
7 edits
Originally posted by VoidSpiritThe English are of the Germanic branch of Indo-European. They're from Scandanavia as of many thousands of years ago and are closer related to Iranians than Jews. "Aryan" = "Iran", but Nazis tended to claim all Indo-European culture as the product of Germanic leadership so they claimed to be "Aryans".
no, but i did read an interesting theory that they might be phonecians. that was years ago and i can't remember the source.
why do you think the people who believe the english are jews are loons?
Listen - EVERY ethnocentric group out there thinks they're the Biblical Israelites. It's an ego thing. Farrakhan claims blacks are Jews. Nazi-types claim Anglo-Saxons are Jews. Arabs claim THEY are the real "Jews" i.e. heirs of Moses' religious tradition and natural owners of Canaan. Each of them has found the "true" version of "the religion of Moses" and all of the others are wrong and fake...it's just ethnocentrism talking.
05 Aug 12
2 edits
Originally posted by VoidSpiritI scanned the first ten or so entries on that HUGE list of scientific references and found nothing that impressed me*.
here are links to many studies and abstracts from those studies.
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-jews.html
there are studies that show;
1. large number of ashkenazi women have origins that are local to various areas.
2. large amount of european genes in ashkenazi jews
2. only about half of ashkenazi jews show lineage to the middle east ...[text shortened]... be unusual to find middle eastern gene markers in people of central asian and european descent.
Yes, Ashkenazim are part eastern European. Not in dispute by anyone.
How pure are all of those "Arabs" in Morocco and Indonesia? Are they all pureblood Arabs? Right. But many of them are still Arabs through descent though mixed with local populations' genes.
*This is from your own webpage...
The results argue against the notion that Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of Eastern European groups such as the Slavs or Khazars, Ostrer noted. 'There's just no evidence for that.'
05 Aug 12
Originally posted by AThousandYoungyes, and i gave that source since it supports my argument of too many conflicting results found in dozens of different studies.
I scanned the first ten or so entries on that HUGE list of scientific references and found nothing that impressed me*.
Yes, Ashkenazim are part eastern European. Not in dispute by anyone.
How pure are all of those "Arabs" in Morocco and Indonesia? Are they all pureblood Arabs? Right. But many of them are still Arabs through descent though mi ...[text shortened]... s such as the Slavs or Khazars, Ostrer noted. 'There's just no evidence for that.'[/quote]
05 Aug 12
Originally posted by AThousandYounggenetic purity is irrelevant to me, but very relevant to those who claim such genetic ties in order to lay claim to lands they haven't occupied in dozens of generations.
How pure are all of those "Arabs" in Morocco and Indonesia? Are they all pureblood Arabs? Right. But many of them are still Arabs through descent though mixed with local populations' genes.
i don't care that the 'arabs' aren't genetically pure (whatever that means). they and their ancestors are natives to those lands.
the colony wasn't morally right, but what's done is done. israel is there by virtue of colonialism, not by virtue of the hebrew messiah, and it was not colonized by historical israelis nor by historical judeans.
those are the relevant points to my argument.
05 Aug 12
3 edits
Originally posted by VoidSpiritWhat does it mean to say that "it wasn't colonized by historical Judeans or Israelis"?
genetic purity is irrelevant to me, but very relevant to those who claim such genetic ties in order to lay claim to lands they haven't occupied in dozens of generations.
i don't care that the 'arabs' aren't genetically pure (whatever that means). they and their ancestors are natives to those lands.
the colony wasn't morally right, but what's done i ...[text shortened]... ical israelis nor by historical judeans.
those are the relevant points to my argument.
Canaanite Semitic culture and mtDNA from Canaan. Just because they're part white doesn't mean they're not Jews and by this time lots of Israeli Ashkenazi are native to Canaan once again. To be native means to be born on the land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_(person)
Sabra is a term used to describe a Jew born in Israel...
In 2010 over 4,000,000 Israeli Jews (70% ) were Sabras, with an even greater percentage of Israeli Jewish youths falling into this category.
05 Aug 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritHaplogroup K evolved ~10,000 BCE, long before anyone other than Canaanites were in Canaan.
it comes from a place that has a huge mixpot of people.
Thousands of years before Palestine, the Kingdom of Israel, Egyptian Empire, Muhammed...
Haplogroup K comes from Canaan.
05 Aug 12
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungit means exactly that. it was colonized by eurasian foreigners.
What does it mean to say that "it wasn't colonized by historical Judeans or Israelis"?
Canaanite Semitic culture and mtDNA from Canaan. Just because they're part white doesn't mean they're not Jews...
if by jew you mean genetic hebrews of the biblical era, they are no longer such. it would be as silly as saying we are all black because we all have genes that originated in africa. they are a eurasian people that migrated and colonized lands in the middle east.
... and by this time lots of Israeli Ashkenazi are native to Canaan once again. To be native means to be born on the land.
ergo my statement of "what's done is done" - but that's not the end of the story. they are still attempting to take what does not belong to them by continued expansion of the original colony into lands that are occupied by other natives.
05 Aug 12
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
it means exactly that. it was colonized by eurasian foreigners.
Canaanite Semitic culture and mtDNA from Canaan. Just because they're part white doesn't mean they're not Jews...
if by jew you mean genetic hebrews of the biblical era, they are no longer such. it would be as silly as saying we are all black because we all have genes ...[text shortened]... ed expansion of the original colony into lands that are occupied by other natives.
if by jew you mean genetic hebrews of the biblical era, they are no longer such
"No longer"? That implies they used to be Jews.
Black people originate from Nigeria and Camaroon. The rest of us do not come from that branch of humanity.
They also control lands that they are not indigenous to. Acknowledging their Jewishness means denying their right to own much of modern Israel. Fair is fair, and they are not indigenous to all of modern Israel.
There is a potential solution to all this, but denying Ashekenazim are Jews is not going to work because it's not true. It just makes you look less credible when you try to insist they're not "real" Jews.
05 Aug 12
Originally posted by AThousandYoungand appears in west eurasia, north africa and south asia. about 6% of europeans have this as well as a significant amount of kurds and about 32% in ashkenazis.
Haplogroup K evolved ~10,000 BCE, long before anyone other than Canaanites were in Canaan.
Thousands of years before Palestine, the Kingdom of Israel, Egyptian Empire, Muhammed...
Haplogroup K comes from Canaan.
that's a pretty big spread.
05 Aug 12
2 edits
Originally posted by VoidSpiritEver heard of the Jewish Diaspora? How the Jews were "scattered" and all that?
and appears in west eurasia, north africa and south asia. about 6% of europeans have this as well as a significant amount of kurds and about 32% in ashkenazis.
that's a pretty big spread.
Also, Jews have specific sub-types of K associated with them, not just K.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_(mtDNA)
Ashkenazi mtDNA K clusters into three subclades seldom found in non-Jews: K1a1b1a, K1a9, and K2a2a.
05 Aug 12
Originally posted by AThousandYoungi was replying in context of your statement. what can be assumed is that some of their ancestors came from the mesopotamian region. this doesn't tell us much since a lot of mesopotamians migrated into eurasia.if by jew you mean genetic hebrews of the biblical era, they are no longer such
"No longer"? That implies they used to be Jews.
Black people originate from Nigeria and Camaroon. The rest of us do not come from that branch of humanity.
They also control lands that they are not indigenous to. Acknowledging their Jewishness means denying their right to own much of modern Israel. Fair is fair, and they are not indigenous to all of modern Israel.
what does it mean to say all of modern israel? there were palestinian and jewish natives dispersed in all of the modern area of israel not counting the wilderness areas that exist everywhere.
however, the point is moot. it doesn't matter what the modern israelis are, the only claims the arabs can make are those which they can enforce.
There is a potential solution to all this, but denying Ashekenazim are Jews is not going to work because it's not true. It just makes you look less credible when you try to insist they're not "real" Jews.
it is not a matter of what i accept or deny. the genetic evidence proves they are not jews. and this is genetically speaking. i'm not saying they are not of the jewish religion. anybody can be that kind of jew.
further, i don't consider genetics a 'right' to own any piece of land. land can be owned only by those who have the power to deny it to others. the eurasians who colonized the levant certainly had this power and they can claim ownership solely based on their continued ability to deny it to others.
the solutions exist in the evolution of humanism. eventually all land ownership must be abolished and all national borders must melt away if we are to advance in our morality, but that's a digression.
05 Aug 12
Originally posted by AThousandYoungright, so of all the studies, the biggest number they could come up with was about 40% (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/14/science/14gene.html) of ashkenazis having genetic ties to the canaan region.
Ever heard of the Jewish Diaspora? How the Jews were "scattered" and all that?
Also, Jews have specific sub-types of K associated with them, not just K.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_(mtDNA)
Ashkenazi mtDNA K clusters into three subclades seldom found in non-Jews: K1a1b1a, K1a9, and K2a2a.
here is a study that examines where the other 60% may have come from.
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Behar-AJHG-03.pdf