Spirituality
19 Nov 10
21 Nov 10
Originally posted by KellyJayI was not mocking God, indeed as i pointed out, there is no way to know if it was divine intervention or not, all we have is your word for it, and unless you are now equated with being God, i deny the charge!
Look at the verbage you used to question me, do you think mocking God like
that was wise?
Kelly
21 Nov 10
Originally posted by galveston75Robbie Carrobie said...
Trivialise? You say trivialise? Why are these scriptures trivialised by so many?
Matt 24:14 & 28: 19, 20? Not doing these trivialise the whole Bible as well as Jesus's death.
Lol, perhaps a dove descended and the heavens were opened
What robbie is referring to is scripture and should not be trivialised, surely you agree.
21 Nov 10
Originally posted by divegeesteri was referring to the experience not the scripture, if this is the best you have then i am sorry, its not good enough. Never the less, I shall take any blame, if i trivialised the scripture then so be it, i will answer to the most high not to you or any other would be judge!
Robbie Carrobie said...Lol, perhaps a dove descended and the heavens were opened
What robbie is referring to is scripture and should not be trivialised, surely you agree.
22 Nov 10
Originally posted by galveston75If one takes the view that the 144,000 is a literal number, then one must also accept that the 144,000 are Jews as well. That would leave out any JW that has ever existed.
That's not what I'm implying. Did Jesus not speak of two groups of followers that would gain both everlasting salvation for one and of everlast life for the other?
There is actually a differance in those two terms. One group does get the gift of immortality that only God and Jesus posses but something the angels do not have offered to them.
The large ...[text shortened]... nce to live forever on this planet as God designed and planed for all humans to live on.
Lets assume that the 144,000 are an actual number sealed by God. Then there is a certian set of qualifications that come with it:
Rev 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb.
I think (again) that leaves out most JW's as there are very very few that do not marry or have sexual relations at some point. It also excludes women from this number, and your denomination has had women claim to be "sealed".
While it is true that there will a "ruling class" of sorts during the millennium (Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark) yet there is no numerical limit placed on this group; also there will be people from the tribulation who died for their beliefs included in that number. Since that event hasn't happened then we can't know who or how many that will be.
This ruling group however does not set a dual class system. At the end of the millennium all believers will be citizens of New Jerusalem when God and men dwell together. The promise of salvation is for all of the children of God. Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
22 Nov 10
Originally posted by duecerWhy would the number be there if it wasn't real. Why would the "little flock" not fit that?
If one takes the view that the 144,000 is a literal number, then one must also accept that the 144,000 are Jews as well. That would leave out any JW that has ever existed.
Lets assume that the 144,000 are an actual number sealed by God. Then there is a certian set of qualifications that come with it:
[b]Rev 14:4 These are those who did not defile thems ...[text shortened]... , if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. [/b]
And Robbie has cleary and to great length explained to you and others that the Jews are not to be taken literally. They do not fit the discription given in the Bible.
And again it has been explained to you that it is not only JW's that are part of the 144,000.
Your not listening................
Not that you'll read this or understand but I have to try....Read the scriptures if you care to.
144,000 ‘not defiled with women.’
In Revelation 14:1-4, the 144,000 described as standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion are said to have been “bought from the earth. These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins.” These are shown as having a more intimate relationship with the Lamb than any others do, being the only ones to master the “new song.” (Re 14:1-4) This would indicate that they make up the “bride” of the Lamb. (Re 21:9) They are spiritual persons, as revealed by the fact that they stand on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb. Therefore their ‘not defiling themselves with women’ and their being “virgins” would not mean that none of these 144,000 persons had ever been married, for the Scriptures do not forbid persons on earth who are to be joint heirs with Christ to marry. (1Ti 3:2; 4:1, 3) Neither would it imply that all the 144,000 were men, for “there is neither male nor female” as far as the spiritual relationship of Christ’s joint heirs is concerned. (Ga 3:28) The “women” therefore must be symbolic women, doubtless religious organizations such as Babylon the Great and her ‘daughters,’ false religious organizations, the joining of and participation in which would prevent one from being spotless. (Re 17:5) This symbolic description harmonizes with the requirement in the Law that the high priest of Israel take only a virgin for his wife, for Jesus Christ is Jehovah’s great High Priest.—Le 21:10, 14; 2Co 11:2; Heb 7:26.
22 Nov 10
Originally posted by galveston75i think deucer is having a little trouble seeing these things from a spiritual perspective, spiritual Jews, spiritual virgins etc etc .
Why would the number be there if it wasn't real. Why would the "little flock" not fit that?
And Robbie has cleary and to great length explained to you and others that the Jews are not to be taken literally. They do not fit the discription given in the Bible.
And again it has been explained to you that it is not only JW's that are part of the 144, ...[text shortened]... is wife, for Jesus Christ is Jehovah’s great High Priest.—Le 21:10, 14; 2Co 11:2; Heb 7:26.
22 Nov 10
Originally posted by galveston75the text is pretty clear that only men who have not had relations with women are part of the 144,000. It is also clear that they are from the 12 tribes of Israel. If one takes the literal view of the 144,000 as an exact number, then you have to accept that the qualifications are literal as well. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Why would the number be there if it wasn't real. Why would the "little flock" not fit that?
And Robbie has cleary and to great length explained to you and others that the Jews are not to be taken literally. They do not fit the discription given in the Bible.
And again it has been explained to you that it is not only JW's that are part of the 144, ...[text shortened]... is wife, for Jesus Christ is Jehovah’s great High Priest.—Le 21:10, 14; 2Co 11:2; Heb 7:26.
22 Nov 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobiehaving no trouble whatsoever RC. As my post above points out, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Its either literal or its not...take your pick.
i think deucer is having a little trouble seeing these things from a spiritual perspective, spiritual Jews, spiritual virgins etc etc .
22 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by duecerits all spiritual, not cake my friend, for we can go through each and every one of the texts that you mentioned and establish our points. To say that its all cake, black and white cake is not true, for many parts of scripture are symbolic and others literal, you cannot say take it or leave it, its simply not that simple.
having no trouble whatsoever RC. As my post above points out, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Its either literal or its not...take your pick.
does not Paul state that circumcision is nothing, that a Jew is a person who is circumsciced of heart (cleansed of heart), that Isreal is spiritual Isreal? well then we have justification for stating that the twelve tribes of Isreal are spiritual Israelites. This is further compounded by Peter, who stated of BOTH Jews and gentiles, you are a Holy nation. It is further compounded by the fact that Christ himself states of Israel, the Kingdom shall be taken from you and given to a people producing its friutage, etc etc etc
22 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by duecerHow Many Are Sealed?
the text is pretty clear that only men who have not had relations with women are part of the 144,000. It is also clear that they are from the 12 tribes of Israel. If one takes the literal view of the 144,000 as an exact number, then you have to accept that the qualifications are literal as well. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
10 Jesus said to those in line for this sealing: “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32) Other scriptures, such as Revelation 6:11 and Romans 11:25, indicate that the number of this little flock is indeed limited and, in fact, predetermined. John’s next words confirm this: “And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed; out of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed.”—Revelation 7:4-8.
11 Could this not be a reference to literal, fleshly Israel? No, for Revelation 7:4-8 diverges from the usual tribal listing. (Numbers 1:17, 47) Obviously, the listing here is not for the purpose of identifying fleshly Jews by their tribes but to show a similar organizational structure for spiritual Israel. This is balanced. There are to be exactly 144,000 members of this new nation—12,000 from each of 12 tribes. No tribe in this Israel of God is exclusively royal or priestly. The whole nation is to rule as kings, and the whole nation is to serve as priests.—Galatians 6:16; Revelation 20:4, 6.
12 Although the natural Jews and Jewish proselytes were given the first opportunity to be chosen for spiritual Israel,
"""""" only a minority of that nation responded.""""""
Jehovah therefore extended the invitation to the Gentiles. (John 1:10-13; Acts 2:4, 7-11; Romans 11:7) As in the case of the Ephesians, who previously had been “alienated from the state of Israel,” now non-Jews could be sealed with God’s spirit and become part of the congregation of anointed Christians. (Ephesians 2:11-13; 3:5, 6; Acts 15:14) It is appropriate, then, for the 24 elders to sing before the Lamb: “With your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”—Revelation 5:9, 10.
13 The Christian congregation is “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation.” (1 Peter 2:9) Replacing natural Israel as God’s nation, it becomes a new Israel that is “really ‘Israel.’” (Romans 9:6-8; Matthew 21:43) For this reason, it was quite proper for Jesus’ half brother James to address his pastoral letter “to the twelve tribes that are scattered about,” that is, to the worldwide congregation of anointed Christians that in time would number 144,000.—James 1:1.
As highlighted above there were never 144,000 from that time of Jesus's words that ever responded to that invitation.
22 Nov 10
Originally posted by galveston75If I accept that 144,000 is an exact number then I must accept that the scripture is speaking of literal Jews. Nowhere in anything you quoted states otherwise.
How Many Are Sealed?
10 Jesus said to those in line for this sealing: “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32) Other scriptures, such as Revelation 6:11 and Romans 11:25, indicate that the number of this little flock is indeed limited and, in fact, predetermined. John’s next words confirm thi ...[text shortened]... ver 144,000 from that time of Jesus's words that ever responded to that invitation.
If however 144,00 is figurative, well then....that's a different story now isn't it?
22 Nov 10
Originally posted by duecerDid you even look up the scriptures? Why can't the number be real but the rest figurative? Is that not possible? Did Jesus not use literal examples with figurative ones?
If I accept that 144,000 is an exact number then I must accept that the scripture is speaking of literal Jews. Nowhere in anything you quoted states otherwise.
If however 144,00 is figurative, well then....that's a different story now isn't it?
22 Nov 10
Originally posted by galveston75Jesus used real and figurative examples, but we are talking about prophecy.
Did you even look up the scriptures? Why can't the number be real but the rest figurative? Is that not possible? Did Jesus not use literal examples with figurative ones?
James 1: The letter to the Ephesians, is that just for people in Turkey, or the whole world? The letter for the twelve tribes (James) was addressed to just that... the twelve tribes, doesn't mean we can't learn from it; and this doesn't prove the 144,000 are "spiritual Jews"
1 Peter 2:9 Peter was speaking to Christian Jews who had been driven from Jerusalem, this also does not support your claim.
Romans 9 The rejection of the Jews by the gospel dispensation, did not break God's promise to the patriarchs. The promises and threatenings shall be fulfilled. While the promise of salvation belongs to all who believe, the Jews are still Gods chosen.
Matthew 21 The theme continues that salvation is for those who believe and produce fruit, this in now way contradicts a literal view of the 144,000