Spirituality
19 Nov 10
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by galveston75As crazy as it sounds yes Christ comes to dwell in all believers 🙂 He is infinite. As Jaywill was saying a while ago God wants to dwell in and with His people. A spiritual Temple so to speak.
So....Jesus actually puts some part of himself in you? Is that true of the 144,000? Are you one of the 144,000?
Manny
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by galveston75I would respond to this but it would take about 10,000 words and endless scriptual qouting. Suffice it to say that while their may be some truth in your post, it is overwhelmed by the extremely poor interpretations of scripture. Again, I won't bother to refute the entire work, rather Ill refute one thing, for if one part is wrong then the whole must be rethought.
I want to bring out this one verse for dear Deucer if I can. Verse 12 where it mentions both Jews and Greeks being saved. He insist that if the 144,000 number is to be taken seriously then only Jews can be a part of the 144,000. Verse 12 here differs with that logic. Other scriptures also point that out.
It's open to all and always has been, if they ...[text shortened]... at all by Jesus of another 3rd group of humans in general going to heaven after death.
I would like to take up this thought (from your post) with you: And there was more. Paul explains again: “If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ.” (Romans 8:17) These spiritual sons of God now had the prospect of inheriting what Christ Jesus was going to inherit—kingly power in heaven. Jesus revealed to the apostle John the number of persons who would be corulers with him over the earth—144,000. (Revelation 7:4; 14:1-3) Then he went on to show John that these favored disciples “will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”—Revelation 20:6.
First: the citing of Rev 7 as the source for who will be in heaven is false. Read in context, it says that a great multitude that cannot be counted, andf who have survived the tribulation are with God in heaven. Here is the entire text: Romans 7: 9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”
what's most interesting is verses 15-16: "they will never hunger...the sun will not beat down on them" This won't happen because in verse 14 they are sheltered by he who sits on the thrones presence. God's throne is in heaven.
To summerize: the 144,000 are not the only ones before the throne of God, this text proves that.
As for the Revelations 14 text: Revelation 14
The Lamb and the 144,000
1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
This passage clearly states they were virgins and had not defiled themselves. If we are to take a literal rendering of this passage (which would include the number 144,000) then we must assume that intertwined in this passage are the requirements. One who is blameless (for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Romans 3:23). They have not defiled themselves with women (they must be men) and they are virgins ( they are unmarried). They are from the 12 tribes of Israel.
Clearly there is no one in the JW organization that meets any of that criteria. So one can safely assume that those today who make that claim of being the 144,000 should be held up as suspect.
I am willing to stipulate that the criteria is figurative, but only if you agree that the number 144,000 is also figurative.
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by jaywillWell said.
[b]=============================================
Clearing Up the Puzzle
What did Jesus have in mind when he spoke about being “born from water and spirit”? Birth means beginning. A new birth means a new beginning. In the case of Jesus’ disciples, their first step toward being born again began once they repented of their sins, turned away from a wro ...[text shortened]... gh his grace, to reveal His Son in me ..." (Gal. 1:15,16a)[/b]
Kelly
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by duecerWhy would you suggest this is figurative. Personally I think God speaks very
I would respond to this but it would take about 10,000 words and endless scriptual qouting. Suffice it to say that while their may be some truth in your post, it is overwhelmed by the extremely poor interpretations of scripture. Again, I won't bother to refute the entire work, rather Ill refute one thing, for if one part is wrong then the whole must be rethou ...[text shortened]... criteria is figurative, but only if you agree that the number 144,000 is also figurative.
clearly in His Word, our hard hearts just don't see what we like sometimes,
but that does mean the Word is wrong it only shows our lack of faith in it.
Kelly
23 Nov 10
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75==========================================
Well I have to disagree with you. The 144,000 according to Jesus will be ruling with him in heaven as judges with Jesus over mankind. So the life we all seek as humans will be up to them and Jesus. I think that's very important. In fact I'd say it could men life or death.
Do you still think they are not important?
Matthew 19:28 (New International V ...[text shortened]... 144,000 are going to heaven? If so could you please show me the scriptures that explain that?
Well I have to disagree with you. The 144,000 according to Jesus will be ruling with him in heaven as judges with Jesus over mankind. So the life we all seek as humans will be up to them and Jesus. I think that's very important. In fact I'd say it could men life or death.
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Regeneration is something more basic then:
1.) How many ?
2.) Where will they be ?
Your reply is not that related to the matter of receiving God's life for the new birth.
I speak of the new birth and you reply about how many will be with Jesus, reigning over who, and from where. Do you see that you are somewhat changing the subject ?
Are you able to talk about regeneration without bringing up how many, where they will be, and over who they will reign ?
The 144,000 in Revelation 14 are indeed born again. There is no question about that. They are not the only humans born of God.
The emphasis on the FIRSTFRUITS is RIPENESS in GROWTH. What is special about the Firstfruits is WHEN they matured - Early and First as in FIRST-fruits.
The implantation of God's life is for the GROWTH and MATURATION of that divine life. We cannot put this growth aside. But man can delay or postpone this maturation process. What is special about the 144,000 in Revelation 14 is not that they alone were born again. Absolutely not. What is special is that they come to full growth and maturity while living on the earth, and are the FIRST of the ripe fruit of God's life.
This is a matter of a reward because of early maturity in divine life. It is not a reward for simply HAVING the divine life.
The nature of the HARVEST and the FIRSTFRUITS is the same. The difference is in TIMING. The FIRST - fruits have matured and developed in that growth of divine life BEFORE the general majority.
FIRST - fruits speaks of TIME. They were FIRST to ripen in God's field. HARVEST, in the same chapter speaks of ripeness at a LATTER time. But the nature of the Firstfruits is not different from that of the Harvest. Timing, is the difference.
Do you understand what I am saying ? Of all God's crop on His farm of divine life, some plants ripen EARLY as Firstfruits. They are a minority. The majority ripen afterwards as a "Harvest".
This is a general brief explanation to help you see the difference between Firstfruits (Rev. 14:4) and Harvest (Rev. 14:15).
Timing, is what you should notice. A minority of those born again mature on TIME. The majority are delayed in time. Those maturing ON TIME normally are early in comparison to the majority.
Incidently, NOTHING at all is said in Revelation 14 about the reigning of the 144,000. Government is not an emphasis in Revelation 14. Rather the Father's satisfaction and enjoyment of the ripeness of His crop is the issue.
==================
Do you still think they are not important?
==============================
Yes I do. They are very important for the satisfaction of the Father.
======================================
Matthew 19:28 (New International Version, ©2010)
28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
===================================
The word "renewal" is the same as "regeneration" in the book of Titus. But this "regeneration" is not merely and simply the new birth of everyone who receives Christ.
I can see that this will take to discuss this well. But you should not regard "in the regeneration of all things" (Matt. 19:28) as exactly the same as the born again regeneration spoken of in John 3.
All things are renewed. Only human beings are "born again". You would be right to say there is a "renewal" of "all things". But only human beings experience a "regeneration" of God's life in Christ, as the Holy Spirit being dispensed into man's innermost being.
Matthew 19:28 is not talking about the "born again" of trees, plants, weather, skies, fields, animals, etc. You should not read "born again" into the word "renewal" or "regeneration" in Matthew 19:28.
I did not say that the renewal or "regeneration" of Matthew 19:28 is not splendid and wonderful. It indeed will be. But this "renewal" or "regeneration" is not exactly the "born again" experience that is in John chapter 3.
For space sake. I will stop writing here.
www.regenerated.net
23 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75========================================
Well I have to disagree with you. The 144,000 according to Jesus will be ruling with him in heaven as judges with Jesus over mankind. So the life we all seek as humans will be up to them and Jesus. I think that's very important. In fact I'd say it could men life or death.
Do you still think they are not important?
Matthew 19:28 (New International V ...[text shortened]... 144,000 are going to heaven? If so could you please show me the scriptures that explain that?
Luke 22:28-30 (New International Version, ©2010)
28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
=========================================
This passage has to mean that Peter is among those rewarded with such a reigning responsibility.
The 144,000 Firstfruits are virgins. Peter had a wife. So what do you do with this ? Peter, with his wife, would literally be disqualified if we were to take that virginity literally in Revelation 14.
How do you handle this little problem down at the kingdom hall of Jehovah' Witnesses ?
Peter was a married man. So if Peter is part of that government, then obviously it would include other disciples beside the 144,000 in Revelation 14. Am I right ?
============================================
1 Corinthians 6:2 (New International Version, ©2010)
2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
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Nothing is said about governing in Revelation 14. The chapter seems focused on the Father's satisfaction rather than the Father's government.
In typology the FIRSTFRUITS were taken to the temple an offered. They ripened FIRST before the general HARVEST.
Point out one phrase in Revelation 14 that has anything to do with GOVERNMENT. The tasty, delicious, enjoyable satisfaction of God of the Firstfruits, I say, is the emphasis of that chapter.
God is happy that some of His people did not drag their feet in the sanctification process and developed into a mature state by following the Lamb. And when Jesus is ready to return, SOME, a minority of living Christians, will be FIRST Matured - Firstfruits to God.
Government is a topic throughout the New Testament. But it is not really mentioned at all in your chapter on 144,000 Firstfruits in Rev. 14.
=============================
Revelation 20:4 (New International Version, ©2010)
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
================================
Again you are in error. These reigning ones in Revelation 20 DIED. They were martyred - beheaded.
The 144,000 Firstfruits in Revelation 14 never died. They are alive and raptured to the third heavens by Christ.
They - Never - Died.
Having said that, there are SOME who did die in ages past who are overcomers and very pleasing to God. That group is in the MANCHILD in chapter 12.
Thus the MANCHILD in Revelation 12 are the overcomers who DIED during the church age. The FIRSTFRUITS in Revelation 14 are the overcomers who are remaining alive, having never died, at the close of the church age.
Do you understand a little of what I am saying ?
=====================================
So are you also saying more then the 144,000 are going to heaven? If so could you please show me the scriptures that explain that?
========================================
I was not talking about going to heaven at all in any regard.
I was not talking about GOING to ANY PLACE. I was talking about RECEIVING the divine life giving Spirit in the born again experience.
I am not talking about being physically taken ANYWHERE. I am talking about RECEIVING Jesus Christ as the life giving Spirit into the kernel of our spiritual being to have Christ BORN into us.
For a little while, you should disregard the matter of HEAVEN. You should understand that TAKING man ANYWHERE is of no use. Man must RECEIVE the Holy Spirit INTO his innermost being.
It is not that relevant WHERE man is taken, where he lives, where he goes. That is all secondary to the believers RECEIVING the indwelling Christ as their new life.
Both mainstream Christianity and Jehovah's Witnesses is entirely too hung up on going to heaven. God did not intend the heaven would be the focus of His eternal salvation. Rather it is that God dwell in man and man dwell in God in a mutual incorporation.
"He that is JOINED to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by KellyJaythere are many parts of the bible that use figurative language. Take the book of Ruth for instance Ruth 3: 1 One day Ruth’s mother-in-law Naomi said to her, “My daughter, I must find a home[a] for you, where you will be well provided for. 2 Now Boaz, with whose women you have worked, is a relative of ours. Tonight he will be winnowing barley on the threshing floor. 3 Wash, put on perfume, and get dressed in your best clothes. Then go down to the threshing floor, but don’t let him know you are there until he has finished eating and drinking. 4 When he lies down, note the place where he is lying. Then go and uncover his feet and lie down. He will tell you what to do.”
Why would you suggest this is figurative. Personally I think God speaks very
clearly in His Word, our hard hearts just don't see what we like sometimes,
but that does mean the Word is wrong it only shows our lack of faith in it.
Kelly
uncovering his feet is a uephamism for uncovering his genitals.
This is just one of many examples where we need to read more critically.
As far as the 144,000 are concerened he has not substantially proven that they are anyone but Jews from the twelve tribes, nor will he be able to unless he concedes that the number is figurative, but he can't do that with out admitting that the rest of his argument is flawed as well.
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by duecer======================================
there are many parts of the bible that use figurative language. Take the book of Ruth for instance Ruth 3: 1 One day Ruth’s mother-in-law Naomi said to her, “My daughter, I must find a home[a] for you, where you will be well provided for. 2 Now Boaz, with whose women you have worked, is a relative of ours. Tonight he will be winnowing barley on the threshing ...[text shortened]... ative, but he can't do that with out admitting that the rest of his argument is flawed as well.
uncovering his feet is a uephamism for uncovering his genitals.
==========================================
I have heard this before from a Hebrew reading and writing theology student.
Would the uephamisim also be the case in Moses's wife and Moses's feet in Exodus 4:25 ?
=============================
This is just one of many examples where we need to read more critically.
As far as the 144,000 are concerened he has not substantially proven that they are anyone but Jews from the twelve tribes, nor will he be able to unless he concedes that the number is figurative, but he can't do that with out admitting that the rest of his argument is flawed as well.
===================================
I do not think the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and those of Revelation 14 are the same group. I think the symbolically calculated number (12 x 12 x 1000) is used in both cases. But two groups of people are refered to.
Chapter 7 are preserved Jews of the 12 tribes.
Chatper 14 are remant of living overcomers from the church (meaning they could be Jews or Gentiles who are of the Body of Christ).
At present that is my view. And I would have to revisit it in study.
23 Nov 10
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillAs for the 144,000 I essentially agree. The argument is over semantics etc...In order to show G75 the error in the thought process used in his theological stance. I have not disagreed substansively with anything you have posted in this thread.
[b]======================================
uncovering his feet is a uephamism for uncovering his genitals.
==========================================
I have heard this before from a Hebrew reading and writing theology student.
Would the uephamisim also be the case in Moses's wife and Moses's feet in Exodus 4:25 ?
============ e Body of Christ).
At present that is my view. And I would have to revisit it in study.
As for Moses. One need not interpret it as genitals for the meaning to still be understood. However some contention exists as to whether Moses himself was circumcised; as he was raised in an Egyptian household. In circumcising her son Zipporah's touching the bloody foreskin of her son to Moses' genitals could represent a spiritual circumcision. Moses at that time would have been too sick to complete the ritual act of circumcision, especially with all the traveling he was about to do.
It is an interesting question though eh?
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by KellyJayDon't really understand the questions in relation to the subject but no on all.
Let me ask it this way, at any time does God ever lose sight of anything?
Is He ever less aware in one place than He is in another?
Is He weaker near you than He is anywhere else?
Kelly
23 Nov 10
Originally posted by menace71So I hate to even ask this but is it God or Jesus? Jesus said salvation was thru him. He never mentied his Father doing this aspect of salvation.
As crazy as it sounds yes Christ comes to dwell in all believers 🙂 He is infinite. As Jaywill was saying a while ago God wants to dwell in and with His people. A spiritual Temple so to speak.
Manny
The scriptures I've already quoted says God will let his son Jesus and the joint heirs, the 144,000, do the judging in the near future. The keys or authority over the Kingdom is handed over to Jesus from God.
I know this trickles over into the trinity thing but this is one of many points that blurs who is who and who does what in the future.
23 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by duecerPerhaps you missed these scriptures. I hope you read them and have a responce as you just said they are only Jews.......
there are many parts of the bible that use figurative language. Take the book of Ruth for instance Ruth 3: 1 One day Ruth’s mother-in-law Naomi said to her, “My daughter, I must find a home[a] for you, where you will be well provided for. 2 Now Boaz, with whose women you have worked, is a relative of ours. Tonight he will be winnowing barley on the threshing ...[text shortened]... ative, but he can't do that with out admitting that the rest of his argument is flawed as well.
Jehovah therefore extended the invitation to the Gentiles. (John 1:10-13; Acts 2:4, 7-11; Romans 11:7) As in the case of the Ephesians, who previously had been “alienated from the state of Israel,” now non-Jews could be sealed with God’s spirit and become part of the congregation of anointed Christians. (Ephesians 2:11-13; 3:5, 6; Acts 15:14) It is appropriate, then, for the 24 elders to sing before the Lamb: “With your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”—Revelation 5:9, 10.
23 Nov 10
2 edits
Originally posted by duecerSorry to all of you if I'm not responding to every thought. To much here to respond to all said.
I would respond to this but it would take about 10,000 words and endless scriptual qouting. Suffice it to say that while their may be some truth in your post, it is overwhelmed by the extremely poor interpretations of scripture. Again, I won't bother to refute the entire work, rather Ill refute one thing, for if one part is wrong then the whole must be rethou criteria is figurative, but only if you agree that the number 144,000 is also figurative.
But here is an explination for those "standing before the throne."
The key to the identification of the “great crowd” is found within the description of them in Revelation chapter 7 and in obviously parallel passages. Revelation 7:15-17 speaks of God as ‘spreading his tent over them,’ of their being guided to “fountains of waters of life,” and of God’s wiping “every tear from their eyes.” At Revelation 21:2-4 we find parallel expressions: ‘God’s tent being with mankind,’ his ‘wiping every tear from their eyes,’ and ‘death being no more.’ The vision there presented is concerning persons not in heaven, from where the ‘New Jerusalem comes down,’ but on earth, among mankind.
This poses the question: If the “great crowd” are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Re 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of the one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19) In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36.) It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by God and the Lamb.
The point of Revelation speaking of the Kings and military commanders seeking to hid from the face of God does not me they are literally in front of God in heaven. They of course or on the earth.
Futher to hold that the 144,000 sealed ones are the members of the Christian congregation while on earth whereas the “great crowd” are the resurrected Christians in heaven does not harmonize with the other mention of the 144,000, in Revelation chapter 14. There the 144,000 are stationed with the Lamb on “Mount Zion.” At Hebrews 12:18-24 the apostle Paul contrasts the experience of the Israelites at the earthly Mount Sinai with that of the Christians who have “approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens.” Obviously, then, although Revelation 14:3 says that the 144,000 have been “bought from the earth,” the context depicts them as being, not on earth, but in heaven with the heavenly Lamb, Christ Jesus. (Re 14:3, 4) This renders invalid the view that the 144,000 represent the Christian congregation while on earth in contrast with their being the “great crowd” in heaven.
In Heaven or on Earth?
12 How do we know that “standing before the throne” does not mean that the great crowd is in heaven? There is much clear evidence on this point. For example, the Greek word here translated “before” (enopion) literally means “in [the] sight [of]” and is used several times of humans on earth who are “before” or “in the sight of” Jehovah. (1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:14; Romans 14:22; Galatians 1:20) On one occasion when the Israelites were in the wilderness, Moses said to Aaron: “Say to the entire assembly of the sons of Israel, ‘Come near before Jehovah, because he has heard your murmurings.’” (Exodus 16:9) The Israelites did not have to be transported to heaven in order to stand before Jehovah on that occasion. (Compare Leviticus 24:8.) Rather, right there in the wilderness they stood in Jehovah’s view, and his attention was on them.
Again only the 144,00 are described as being "bought from the earth". The great crowd or mankind in general are not mentioned in that way. There is not one scripture that says mankind in general will ever go to heaven.
What is the purpose of that? If you have a group of judges including Jesus in a position to judge, who would they be judging if all humans were in heaven or hell. It would seem the judging would have already taken place before this discription of bible events.
In other words lets say you are saved now as some believe. That would mean you've already been judged by someone. Who did that?
According to these scriptures which I have already quoted, this judging work has not happened yet. . Mt 19:28; Lu 22:28-30, 1Co 1:2; 6:2, Re 20:4.
So if this judging has not happened yet, how can one be judghed now and already saved?