The Book of Amos

Originally posted by rwingett
And how do you see it, Kelly? If you put a quarter under your pillow at night does St. Paul grant you a half hour dream of his imaginary Kingdom?

Luke 17 (New International Version)

20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

You always have been and always will be looking for it or denying it
is real till you come to God in Christ. If you do not belong to God you
are just in the world lost.
Kelly

Originally posted by rwingett
And how do you see it, Kelly? If you put a quarter under your pillow at night does St. Paul grant you a half hour dream of his imaginary Kingdom?

I just cannot believe the credibility afforded this self avowed atheist on matters pertaining to Christiniaty by all of the responders to his post. Don't all of you see rwingett for what he is? A Christian baiting, silver-toungued-marxist/leninist/stalinist/maoist/prevaricator who is arrogant enough to lecture Christians. All that matters to him is promoting the looniest brand of leftismi Notice how he picks only text that fits his leftist worldview! Nothing else gets quoted. I wonder if he puts a quarter under his pillow and dreams of his bleak stalinist, etc kingdom. Just look at his avatar. Don't you see you are dealing with someone who finds extreme ugliness appealing. He has some audacity calling others spawn of satan since he so obviously projects. Nothing will satisfy him but Christians rolling over and playing dead. Milquetoast Christians who will have their faith eradicated by the likes of this minion of the unmentionable one!

Originally posted by KellyJay
Luke 17 (New International Version)

20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

You always have been and always will be looking for it or ...[text shortened]... come to God in Christ. If you do not belong to God you
are just in the world lost.
Kelly

This is a good point. The Kingdom of god is within you.

And it is without you.

This is an example of what I said earlier in this thread - as I am not bound to any particular biblical interpretation, I am free to incorporate extra-biblical sources into my approach. For example, in the Gospel of Thomas it says "the Kingdom of god is inside of you, and it is outside of you." I suspect that the Kingdom has a dual nature. One internal and one external. The inward manifestation is the conversion of the man away from his attachment to the world of mammon and his subsequent desire to do god's work. But that, in itself, is a dead end. The outward manifestation is the actual building of that Kingdom in the physical world. It is the refusal to participate any longer in the world of mammon and build the kingdom within its dying shell.

So the inward manifestation of the Kingdom is a necessary precondition for the outward manifestation, but by itself it is worthless.

This is my greatest problem with Paul. He has divorced the Kingdom and salvation from this world and has pushed it into the next. Instead of demanding some hard work from people to build the Kingdom, they now get to sit around and wait for Jesus to deliver it into their sorry, pious laps. Nobody's going to give you anything for free. If you want the Kingdom, you're going to have to get up and build it yourself. To paraphrase Field of Dreams: Build it and He will come.

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
I just cannot believe the credibility afforded this self avowed atheist on matters pertaining to Christiniaty by all of the responders to his post. Don't all of you see rwingett for what he is? A Christian baiting, silver-toungued-marxist/leninist/stalinist/maoist/prevaricator who is arrogant enough to lecture Christians. All that matters to him is prom ...[text shortened]... ans who will have their faith eradicated by the likes of this minion of the unmentionable one!

Once again, I will state that I am not talking about Marxism. Or Leninism. Or Stalinism. Socialism is not synonymous with Marxism. As I have pointed out elsewhere, prior to Marx socialism was almost entirely a Christian endeavor. For precisely the reasons I have pointed out. The number of Christians throughout the years who have drawn similar conclusions to mine is rather long. There is evidence to suggest that the very first Jesus communities lived in a communal lifestyle similar to what is described in Acts. It has been a recurring theme throughout the history of Christianity. It continues today in the Hutterite communities in the western US and Canada. It is my opinion that today they are the closest practitioners of what Jesus had in mind.

If you want to discuss any of that, I would be happy to oblige you. But if you insist on rambling on about Marx, then I have nothing to say.

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
I just cannot believe the credibility afforded this self avowed atheist on matters pertaining to Christiniaty by all of the responders to his post. Don't all of you see rwingett for what he is? A Christian baiting, silver-toungued-marxist/leninist/stalinist/maoist/prevaricator who is arrogant enough to lecture Christians. All that matters to him is prom ...[text shortened]... ans who will have their faith eradicated by the likes of this minion of the unmentionable one!

its his powerful gaze and use of telepathic waves that mesmerises us into his web of intrigue!

Originally posted by rwingett
Once again, I will state that I am not talking about Marxism. Or Leninism. Or Stalinism. Socialism is not synonymous with Marxism. As I have pointed out elsewhere, prior to Marx socialism was almost entirely a Christian endeavor. For precisely the reasons I have pointed out. The number of Christians throughout the years who have drawn similar conclusions to ...[text shortened]... be happy to oblige you. But if you insist on rambling on about Marx, then I have nothing to say.

You are wrongly assuming that early Christians lived the way they did because of adherence to this or that doctrine failing to take into account that they were froced into communal existence because of being marginalized. Under such circumstances socialism was the only way to not disappear into oblivion. You also fail to mention the great number of "capitalist" contributors to these communes, many of them members of Roman nobility, for example. Also, one of Jesus' best friends, Simon of Arimathea, was filthy rich. Jesus never abjured him, condemned or stigmatized him. Jesus also mentions throughout the Bible there wil always be poor and entreats us to be kind to them.

You are talking about extreme leftism under whatever guise you prefer to call it. you are obviously intelligent, but mendaciously dishonest. You berate others for fitting scripture to their ends whilst all the while you do nothing but. The Book of Amos indeed influenced Christian teaching, but is not the end all. You are trying to guilt Christians into adopting socialistic views which are usually a vehicle to further the demise of religion. Opium of the people remind you of anyone?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its his powerful gaze and use of telepathic waves that mesmerises us into his web of intrigue!

LOL! Reached all the way to Scotland. Creepy, eerie and remarkable!

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
You are wrongly assuming that early Christians lived the way they did because of adherence to this or that doctrine failing to take into account that they were froced into communal existence because of being marginalized. Under such circumstances socialism was the only way to not disappear into oblivion. You also fail to mention the great number of "cap sually a vehicle to further the demise of religion. Opium of the people remind you of anyone?

Now we're getting somewhere. This may turn into a fruitful conversation yet.

I have to say, though, that I disagree with your characterization of the early Christian communities as being experiments of necessity. I think that was the essence of Jesus' message. I suspect your political orientation is coloring your interpretation of scripture as much as you seem to think it does for me. It seems that we are both recreating Jesus in our own image. The difference between us is that I do not entirely deny that charge.*

I think the great stumbling block between us centers around your conception of what socialism is. Perhaps merely using a different word would make my concept of the Kingdom more amenable. Consider 'communalism', for example. People living in a mutually supporting community. If it's not too much trouble, I would like you to go to Wikipedia and read their entry on the Hutterites. This will give you a better idea of what I mean by "Christian socialism." Then let me know what you think of that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterites

*I think my interpretation is rooted in fact, but as all the facts cannot be known there is necessarily a certain amount of speculation in it.

Originally posted by rwingett
It's a great topic of interest. Even as an atheist, I think religion could serve a useful purpose in the world. It currently does not, but it could. If Christians realize that their religion has little in common with what Jesus actually said, it could be updated for a post-theistic 21st century.

But getting back to the topic at hand, do you have an opinion on the Book of Amos?

John Adams agrees with you, but he died.

Originally posted by rwingett
This is a good point. The Kingdom of god is within you.

And it is without you.

This is an example of what I said earlier in this thread - as I am not bound to any particular biblical interpretation, I am free to incorporate extra-biblical sources into my approach. For example, in the Gospel of Thomas it says "the Kingdom of god is inside of you, and ...[text shortened]... to get up and build it yourself. To paraphrase Field of Dreams: Build it and He will come.

Your problem isn't with Paul but God's Spirit.
Kelly

Originally posted by rwingett
Once again, I will state that I am not talking about Marxism. Or Leninism. Or Stalinism. Socialism is not synonymous with Marxism. As I have pointed out elsewhere, prior to Marx socialism was almost entirely a Christian endeavor. For precisely the reasons I have pointed out. The number of Christians throughout the years who have drawn similar conclusions to ...[text shortened]... be happy to oblige you. But if you insist on rambling on about Marx, then I have nothing to say.

You forgot the Black Liberation Movement which gave birth to Reverend Wright. You know, Obama's spiritual advisor.

Originally posted by whodey
You forgot the Black Liberation Movement which gave birth to Reverend Wright. You know, Obama's spiritual advisor.

I think Wright got a bum wrap. The only thing people know about him is one sermon taken out of context.

Originally posted by rwingett
I think Wright got a bum wrap. The only thing people know about him is one sermon taken out of context.

The problem is the "Black" not the "liberation." As for Obama, he's far less Marxist than Groucho was.

Originally posted by TerrierJack
The problem is the "Black" not the "liberation." As for Obama, he's far less Marxist than Groucho was.

Do you two even know what the Black libertarian movement was all about? Their origins are socialist in nature no matter if Reverend Wright got a bum rap.

Originally posted by whodey
Do you two even know what the Black libertarian movement was all about? Their origins are socialist in nature no matter if Reverend Wright got a bum rap.

Quick, what's worse than a black socialist? A white racist of course!