The Book of Amos

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
While you "do not view the human race as something that is divided up into colors", a large part of the population does with the long-standing racist attitudes that go with it. Those who point out and seek to undo the effects from those attitudes are not necessarily racist for taking this on. It's impossible to bring up without bringing up race.

Well, mankind is nothing but a bunch of sinners now too. You want
to suggest because we have a flaw within us that suggests one race
is better or less than another that makes that view valid, or one that
should be held on too? You feel God views man according to man's
skin color, you think God cares one wit what a man's color is over how
that same man acts towards God and his fellow man?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm telling you how I view it, you feel I shouldn't have any views on
the matter because I have not been black? Get a grip! No I have not
gone through those things, that does not void my opinion or make
it any less important as yours! It only means I have a different back
ground nothing more.

With respect to slavery it is/was a world wide institution ...[text shortened]... s
about truth, honesty, grace, and love, and sin that steals, kills, and
destroys.
Kelly

your response is exactly why you need a seminar on white priveledge

Originally posted by rwingett
Who would like to join a discussion about the Book of Amos? This isn’t a book that gets as much attention as some of the junk, like Revalation, but I think it is much more interesting.

I will start by noting the strong anti-commercial, anti-capitalist stance taken in Amos. Some would claim it is only a condemnation of the excesses of a capitalist mode o ...[text shortened]... pise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.[/i]

Alright, that’s enough to get us started.

==============================
Amos 8:4
Hear this, you who trample upon the needy, and bring the poor of the land to an end, saying, “When will the new moon be over, that we may sell grain? And the sabbath, that we may offer wheat for sale, that we may make the ephah small and the shekel great, and deal deceitfully with false balances, that we may buy the poor for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals, and sell the refuse of the wheat?” The Lord has sworn by the pride of Jacob; “Surely I will never forget any of their deeds.
===================================

When you call Revelation junk and hunt through Amos to find things which agree with your political theories, it reveals a lot about you more so than the Bible.

The passage you quote, Amos 8:4, has a strong parallel in Revelation in the condemnation of Babylon the Great in her materialistic excesses, even to the point of trading "the souls of men" for nothing but money. The insights of Amos are in Revelation too. It stands to reason since Revelation is the climax of all the 66 books of the divine revelation of the Bible.


You never read chapter 18 of Revelation? You never noticed specifically the all around judgment on rampant greedy commerce in verses 9 - 19?

I guess you were just trying to be provocative by uplifting Amos and calling Revelation junk. Some of us appreciate the whole Bible. Better yet, we've actually spent time to read it.

Originally posted by duecer
your response is exactly why you need a seminar on white priveledge

You afraid of answering my questions, or are you just going to imply
something and run off?

Do you think there is only one race?
Do you think whites and blacks are equal?
Do you think one color is more or less than another?

Give a seminar will you!

There is nothing in my post about white privilege, only equality.
KellyJay

Originally posted by KellyJay
You afraid of answering my questions, or are you just going to imply
something and run off?

Do you think there is only one race?
Do you think whites and blacks are equal?
Do you think one color is more or less than another?

Give a seminar will you!

There is nothing in my post about white privilege, only equality.
KellyJay

Do you think there is only one race?

What a ridiculous question.
------

Do you think whites and blacks are equal?

I believe that they should be, but that isn't the reality of the society we live in. Poverty and criminal activity are disproportionately out of kilter between whites and blacks in America. Care to venture a guess why? Hint: insitutionalized racism and oppression are a good place to start.

-----

Do you think one color is more or less than another?

again another rediculous question. Even among "whites" we have a variety of skin tones. It isn't about how white or how black someone is, its the fact that any amount of African geneteics makes you black and open to oppresion. President Obama is black with a white mother, why isn't he called white with a black father? care to take a guess?

if you don't think society as a whole discriminates then you are either ignorant or blind. I bet your the guy at the party that says, "hey some of my best friends are black" when you really mean you talk sports with the guy who works on the loading dock, but for the life of you, you can't remember his first name....even though its printed on his shirt.

😞

Originally posted by KellyJay
There is nothing in my post about white privilege, only equality.
KellyJay

Your post is written from the position of privilege. It is not reasonable, helpful, or even possible for African Americans living in south Chicago to be colorblind in the manner you advocate. If they were, the only explanation they would have for the conditions they experience, is that all their neighbors and friends are lazy, no good, shiftless, ...

But, when a pastor grounded in history and the scripture begins to speak to the systemic economic and cultural barriers that his community can and will overcome with the right kind of faith--faith that recognizes the manifestations of evil both in individual behaviors and in the economic system that deters banks from making loans necessary for improving untenable housing conditions and in the employment practices that favor graduates of predominantly white colleges that were members of predominantly white fraternities and whose fathers and mothers went to those same colleges, you profess ignorance of the tradition out of which he speaks. When FOX tells you that this pastor is racist, and shows a clip in which the prevailing economic practices of the United States are called devilish, you believe it. When that pastor embraces the rhetoric of black community business ownership and shopper loyalty going back to W.E.B. DuBois, Marcus Garvey, M. L. King, Jr., and Malcolm X (all mixed together as "Black Nationalism"--and not substantially different from the little fishes you see in the ads in the Yellow Pages ), you become color blind.

What enables these mental processes of denial has been named: white privilege.

Originally posted by Wulebgr
Your post is written from the position of privilege. It is not reasonable, helpful, or even possible for African Americans living in south Chicago to be colorblind in the manner you advocate. If they were, the only explanation they would have for the conditions they experience, is that all their neighbors and friends are lazy, no good, shiftless, ...

But, color blind.

What enables these mental processes of denial has been named: white privilege.

No, my post is written from my perspective of reality, as far as I'm
concern if society judges one color type better or worse than another
than we have found fault with society. If you wish to tell African
Americans in south Chicago they need to feel less than a white
person or that they are better than a white person merely due to the
fact they were born with more color, your perpetuating an extremely
evil falsehood. If you are just simply acknowledging that there are
those that do believe that, okay, big deal, it doesn’t mean that people
are not equal it is just that some are prejudice it doesn’t mean what
they think is true.

To suggest my opinion is less than because I’m white is also
prejudice in my opinion, and feeds the status quo of hard feelings
people have who for one reason or another distrusts those of another
color for no other reason than the color of their skin. I do not carry
the same life experiences; however, that adds nothing to or takes
a way from worth or value, skin color is meaningless in that
respect. What you do with your life which is our actions will make
us more or less meaningful to those around us, and people all the
time in every spectrum of color are adding to or taking away from
the rest of us by choices they make. I’m not sure what you are
advocating by suggesting that if we say that those people in
Chicago are no different than anyone else, that they are all of a
sudden all the negative things you claim.

I also think you are confused; I’m talking about people’s worth,
their value, the fact that in reality we are just people. You seem
to want to turn that into me saying that I’m denying issues where
there are hindrances because of the prejudices of other people!
I am in no way saying there are not road blocks, but at the same
time I’m acknowledging those road blocks that are there due to
the Color of one’s skin is a man made one only. It isn’t
something that God promotes or favors, with God we are all his,
he does not have favorites, when you attack one of God’s that is
white He does not get more or less upset than if you were to attack
one of His that is black.
Kelly

Originally posted by Wulebgr
Your post is written from the position of privilege. It is not reasonable, helpful, or even possible for African Americans living in south Chicago to be colorblind in the manner you advocate. If they were, the only explanation they would have for the conditions they experience, is that all their neighbors and friends are lazy, no good, shiftless, ...

But, ...[text shortened]... color blind.

What enables these mental processes of denial has been named: white privilege.

"When FOX tells you that this pastor is racist, and shows a clip in which the prevailing economic practices of the United States are called devilish, you believe it. "

Where do you get off telling me what I believe! I've told you already
I'm more concern about a Pastor being taken out of context for some
political reason than anything else. Fox News can answer for what for
Fox News says, I'm not here to defend anything they say, I'll take up
and defend that which I do. So please, stop painting me with that
evil little brush of yours, if I say something you have an issue with
bring it up, don't just assume because I'm white I am X.
Kelly

Originally posted by duecer
Do you think there is only one race?

What a ridiculous question.
------

Do you think whites and blacks are equal?

I believe that they should be, but that isn't the reality of the society we live in. Poverty and criminal activity are disproportionately out of kilter between whites and blacks in America. Care to venture a guess why? Hint: insitution f you, you can't remember his first name....even though its printed on his shirt.

😞

I'm talking about the worth of people, it was not a ridiulous question
is was a very serous one, which you still have not answered well in
my opinion, they either are or they are not.

Do not confuse society's views with what I'm saying, also do not
confuse my claiming there is no difference between all of us that I
think some do not have road blocks others do not. The road blocks are
not part of the value or worth discussion, they are part of the problem
yes, but bottom line equal value or worth highlights where these types
of road blocks are, that those same road blocks are evil/wrong. There
should be NO REASON to hinder anyone for their skin color!

Listen I have realitives that are different colors, they are just realitives
as far as I'm concern. I'm again not saying discrimination isn't taking
place, but I am saying bottom line we are equal and should be treated
as such. You have insulted me a couple of times now suggesting my
motives and beliefs are something nasty, please stop it!
Kelly

Originally posted by jaywill
==============================
Amos 8:4
Hear this, you who trample upon the needy, and bring the poor of the land to an end, saying, “When will the new moon be over, that we may sell grain? And the sabbath, that we may offer wheat for sale, that we may make the ephah small and the shekel great, and deal deceitfully with false balances, that we may me of us appreciate the [b]whole Bible. Better yet, we've actually spent time to read it.[/b]

Every book may have something of use in it. But pound for pound Revelation has more junk than most.

Originally posted by rwingett
Every book may have something of use in it. But pound for pound Revelation has more junk than most.

Junk?

Spoken like someone with absolutely no understanding of the power of the Book of Revelation.

Like the The Prophecies of Nostradamus, Revelation is widely open to interpretation and can thus be used to support a far range of views and beliefs. The fact that you seem to lack any appreciation whatsoever for this kind of flexibility speaks volumes.

You've no doubt heard the phrase, "With flexibility comes power". Coincidence? Better think again.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You have insulted me a couple of times now suggesting my
motives and beliefs are something nasty, please stop it!
Kelly

your motives are not nasty I'm sure, but your belief's are born of ignorance. take a seminar on white priveledge and see if you still feel the same way.

Originally posted by rwingett
Every book may have something of use in it. But pound for pound Revelation has more junk than most.

================================
Every book may have something of use in it. But pound for pound Revelation has more junk than most.
==================================

I do not agree with that at all.

It is more likely that you simply do not have enough spiritual experience or discernment to get the riches out of it. Now that is NOT to make you feel ashamed. There is no shame in being at a certain level of maturity and moving in the direction of more maturity in time.

The book of Revelation has an explicit recommendation to read it (Rev. 1:3)

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things written in it, for the time is near."

This is a blessing to read, to hear, and to keep (rather than discard) the things obtained in this book.

Secondly, to "keep" the things does not insist that one totally understand all the things. Some may intend to discard the things. I intend to "keep" the things read to obtain this blessing.

The Holy Spirit can effect our lives positively by passages that we do not fully understand. This is the rhema of God speaking to us and washing us in the water of the Word.

Thirdly, not only is there an explicit blessed recommendation to read, hear, and keep, there is an explicit warning not to take away from anything in the book:

"I testify to eveyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and out of the holy city, which is written in this scroll." (Rev. 22:18,19)

Just because you cannot find a lot of support there for your political and economic ideologies is no reason to downgrade the book as not useful.

The Lord's recovery today of the recovered new testament church life owes a tremendous lot to the healthy exposition of the book of Revelation.

I know where you are coming from. You much prefer probably the Gospel of Mark. That is because modern skeptics like to point out that Mark is the earliest gospel. And it has the least amount of the teaching of Jesus. That way emphasizing Mark gives these skeptics ground (supposedly) to teach they have the inside story on the "demythologized" Jesus - the so called "historical Jesus".

Since they think clinging to Mark will cast doubt on so much of the rest of the New Testament, they can insert their own ideas as to what Jesus really stood for.

Originally posted by duecer
your motives are not nasty I'm sure, but your belief's are born of ignorance. take a seminar on white priveledge and see if you still feel the same way.

I take it this is where you are going to leave it, not really touching my
questions just once again suggesting I'm ignorant. It also sounds
as if you don't feel that people are just people, you seem to be
carrying around a belief that either evolution has given one group
more value or worth than another, or God did not create mankind
equal that God has favorites.

Once again, I'm not talking about how society behaves, but what the
truth of value and worth really are.
Kelly

Originally posted by rwingett
Every book may have something of use in it. But pound for pound Revelation has more junk than most.

"Ming the Merciless ?"

You're really fond of Flash Gordon aren't you ?