The Book of Amos

Originally posted by jaywill
"Ming the Merciless ?"

You're really fond of Flash Gordon aren't you ?

It was an entertaining movie. Max von Sydow made an excellent Ming. Why do you ask?

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, my post is written from my perspective of reality, as far as I'm
concern if society judges one color type better or worse than another
than we have found fault with society. If you wish to tell African
Americans in south Chicago they need to feel less than a white
person or that they are better than a white person merely due to the
fact they were b ...[text shortened]... He does not get more or less upset than if you were to attack
one of His that is black.
Kelly

You have completely missed the point about white privilege. Until you can acknowledge that, there's no hope of beginning to comprehend anything Pastor Jeremiah Wright says to his predominantly black congregation.


Reality? Not true at all.

You completely misrepresent what I stated, which is not surprising since you either ignore or fail to comprehend it's core point. Quibbling about the details is senseless when your incomprehension of the core is so total, and so far from a realistic understanding of systemic racism in American society. You cannot develop a basis for understanding white privilege as long as you view racism only in terms of individual prejudice, while ignoring its institutionalization in structures of power, language, economics, and even theology.

Now, to get back to the subject of this thread, let's connect this string to the book of Amos. What happens to your understanding of the prophet if America is substituted for Israel in his denunciations? Would he be deemed unpatriotic?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I’m talking about people’s worth,
their value, the fact that in reality we are just people.

That is the central point Pastor Wright makes. But he is speaking to people whose struggle to gain elementary self-esteem must overcome those very things you will be able to see, however dimly, the moment you acknowledge white privilege.

Originally posted by KellyJay
To suggest my opinion is less than because I’m white

I never said anything even remotely close to this. The fact that you seem to think that I might have only serves to demonstrate the considerable, and growing, gap between your comments and reality due to utter incomprehension of white privilege.


The point is this: in America, everything a non-white says is colored in the process of transmission because of systemic racism; while white assertions are not connected to race, unless they are speaking about race. Hence, you have the privilege to see your ideas treated as ideas separate from your personhood.








The whole Jeremiah Wright issue arose in the first place because an African American politician cannot run a colorblind campaign no matter how much he tries. Obama did not center race in his campaign, but FOX forced his race to the fore.

Originally posted by rwingett
It was an entertaining movie. Max von Sydow made an excellent Ming. Why do you ask?

Never mind.

I thought you were showing your age. Flash Gordon is 50s stuff.

Do you remember the female character Dale? She always faints at the wrong time.

I was needling you a bit too. You spoke of the "junk" in Revelation. But for one into SciFi that seems a bit strange.

I was needling you.

Originally posted by Wulebgr
You have completely missed the point about white privilege. Until you can acknowledge that, there's no hope of beginning to comprehend anything Pastor Jeremiah Wright says to his predominantly black congregation.


Reality? Not true at all.

You completely misrepresent what I stated, which is not surprising since you either ignore or fail to comprehend ...[text shortened]... et if America is substituted for Israel in his denunciations? Would he be deemed unpatriotic?

I think you need to go get training to understand my point, you just
cannot see it unless you are trained, there is no hope for you to
grasp or comprehend my core points, your back ground just simply
places you in a position you can only see the world from the
perspective of X which everyone who is in the know and has been
trained sees your world view as what it is, "screwed up!"

I think your in a cult or something if you have to get trained or get
your mind right to understand your points, from where I am, all I just
repeated back to you really isn't worth saying or hearing now is it, yet
that is what you have said to me.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I think your in a cult or something if you have to get trained or get
your mind right to understand your points,

Of course. Education is the worst of cults. All knowledge should be self-evident to the infant.



C'mon KellyJay. You and I have have decent conversations in the past. I would not be wasting my time discussing this with you if you had not demonstrated in the past that you are capable of weighing and considering.


Try to understand the Trinity without teaching: as you cannot, all that profess it are in a cult.

You yourself use the term "sit under" in reference to learning from a pastor. This language implies that one must be taught to understand.

I have made clear that I read the sermons of Pastor Wright in light of extensive study of three areas of knowledge: the Old Testament prophets, the Black church, the American Jeremiad. Outside of all three contexts, his words can be twisted to sound threatening to American values. In light of these three, his sermons are a strong call to justice and renewal.

In the tradition of prophecy, he seems to condemn what he seeks to reform.

The prophet Amos does the same. His words were so harsh, that the king and the priests sought to chase him out of the kingdom of Israel (Amos 7: 10-13). The prophet renewed his attacks (Amos 7: 14-17).

Pastor Wright speaks harshly because he believes in the promise of justice for all.

Originally posted by rwingett
But getting back to the topic at hand, do you have an opinion on the Book of Amos?

Reading through the book at a sitting, I am struck by repeated instances of condemnation for the well to do robbing the poor. Even a tax on the poor is condemned (Amos 5: 11). Even more striking is the entire absence from the text of any notion of individualism. Responsibility, social policy, and punishment are all understood as issues for tribes, cities, nations.


There should be no question that if Amos were alive today he would be preaching against those that protest against H.R. 3200.

Originally posted by Wulebgr
Of course. Education is the worst of cults. All knowledge should be self-evident to the infant.



C'mon KellyJay. You and I have have decent conversations in the past. I would not be wasting my time discussing this with you if you had not demonstrated in the past that you are capable of weighing and considering.


Try to understand the Trinity withou ...[text shortened]...

Pastor Wright speaks harshly because he believes in the promise of justice for all.

I agree we have had those types of discussions; however, when I say
that all people are equal and you tell me not so and I get told my
statement shows a lack of understanding, I have an issue with that.
I want you to back up your statement not just say I have to sit under
some teacher for X amount of time before I get a grip I have a
problem with that! Value statements are either self evident or you
require some proof, for me people are people with one no more
important than an other due to color is either accepted or rejected. I
don't feel I have to prove a person with more color than I have is less
than or more important than I am, I don't feel like I have to prove we
are equally loved by God, I do believe if you feel other wise you are
the one that is required to prove one is of more worth than another.

I found it completely insulting that because of my color my views are
just dismissed out of hand. Either you accept people as is or you do
not, and so far I'm finding your stance a little demeaning.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I agree we have had those types of discussions; however, when I say
that all people are equal and you tell me not so and I get told my
statement shows a lack of understanding, I have an issue with that.
I want you to back up your statement not just say I have to sit under
some teacher for X amount of time before I get a grip I have a
problem with that! ...[text shortened]... pt people as is or you do
not, and so far I'm finding your stance a little demeaning.
Kelly

I'm not dismissing your views because you are White. That's absurd. I'm White.

I share your ideals, but the reality of race in America cannot be ignored. Only White people are capable of pretending that race is not an issue. But, not all White people do so. White privilege names, among other things, this capacity to idealize in the face of cruel realities.

Again, I agree that all people should be equal. The problem, as I see it: how do we transform that ideal into reality?

First, we acknowledge that systemic discrimination still infiltrates every critical institution in society, from Delta Airlines to the State Department, from McDonalds to your local church.

Second, we commit ourselves to working for justice.

Only White people are capable of pretending that race is not an issue

That's not true.

Originally posted by Wulebgr
I'm not dismissing your views because you are White. That's absurd. I'm White.

I share your ideals, but the reality of race in America cannot be ignored. Only White people are capable of pretending that race is not an issue. But, not all White people do so. White privilege names, among other things, this capacity to idealize in the face of cruel realities ...[text shortened]... , from McDonalds to your local church.

Second, we commit ourselves to working for justice.

I'm not ignoring the reality, I acknowledge the fact there are people
who for one reason or another are held back! The point that makes
that so wrong/evil is because we are the same, we are equal, there is
no reason for that to be done to anyone except for reasons that has
nothing to do with reality; however, when I asked the question do we
view people as equals I was shocked that I didn't get a yes, I got
hemming and hawing and I was told my stance for that belief was less
than!

While at the same time, there is no excuse for anyone to not also
take it upon themselves to do better even in the face of such things
that would hinder them. Life is a struggle, it isn't always fair, but we
all have it within us to do the right thing for the right reasons, even in
the face of something as completely wrong and evil as prejudice.

I hate the term "white privilege" I think it is demeaning and anti
social and puts white people down for no other reason than they are
not people with more color, to say I'm filled with it to me is no
different than using some of the more evil names people use for
those of us that have more color than I do. If fills the arena of thought
with notions of prejudice that all white people act and think the same
way towards everyone else without regard to what is truly within the
human heart. You may as well say all people of "pick your color" are
all low lives because some behave that way, every day, every chance
they get.

I'm again stressing that all people are equal, they are all not treated
that way, which is a different subject all together! If you want justice
you start acting and thinking about people in terms of reality, we are
no different from one another then everything else will fall away as
meaningless once we start doing that. It adds nothing to the
discussion by insulting one group because another is insulted, look
at the root cause look at the heart of each person and find what is
really there, do not just assume they are X whatever you think X is.
Kelly

Originally posted by daniel58
That's not true.

"Only White people are capable of pretending that race is not an issue"

I agree with you, thats not only not true it is one of the most
insulting things I have ever read here, and I've been insulted more
than a few times here.
Kelly

Originally posted by daniel58
That's not true.

I agree. I should have phrased it more carefully. It is much easier for White people in the United States, where they are a majority in the population, and a super-majority in the structures of power, to pretend that race is not an issue.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I hate the term "white privilege" I think it is demeaning and anti
social and puts white people down for no other reason than they are
not people with more color, to say I'm filled with it to me is no
different than using some of the more evil names people use for
those of us that have more color than I do. If fills the arena of thought
with notions of ...[text shortened]... olor" are
all low lives because some behave that way, every day, every chance
they get.

Based on this response, I'm fairly certain that you don't understand the term. Here's an effort towards explaining the term from one of the seminal essays on the topic, "Unpacking the Invisble Knapsack" by Peggy McIntosh

http://www.case.edu/president/aaction/UnpackingTheKnapsack.pdf


As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and
acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find
someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.



__________________________________

At least twice I have been in a situation where I might have reason to doubt number number 10:

In a roomful of approximately 200 people contentiously discussing interracial dating on a college campus, I was one of 1/2 dozen EuroAmericans. We were all silent.

At a lunch table with a ten or twelve other people, the language employed to criticize the African American student body president, was something that I, as the only non-African American at the table, considered that I should remain silent.