- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Dec 18
4 edits
The One who was to be born in Bethlehem. From when does He come?
He comes from the "days of eternity." No other human expression can hardly convey that He is pre-existing from eternity.
From you [Bethlehem] there will come forth to Me He who is to be Ruler in Israel; His goings forth are from ancient times, from days of eternity. (Micah 5:2)
The One who inhabits eternity is Jehovah God. (Isaiah 57:15)
For thus says the high and exalted One, Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: ... (Isaiah 57:15a)
The Bible reveals the mysterious triune God. For John's prologue tells us the Word was with God and the Word WAS God.
Is God eternal, inhabiting eternity ? Yes.
The One born in Bethlehem to come forth to the Father has His goings forth also from "days of eternity" .
This is the eternal Father and the eternal Son.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Dec 18
5 edits
The One to be born in Bethlehem has His comings forth from days of ETERNITY.
He comes to "the Ancient of Days" in Daniel 7 as He comes forth "unto Me" Jehovah God who inhabits eternity. This is a revelation of the Triune God.
Compare now. First God in Isaiah 57:15)
American Standard Version
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite.
Now one whose is from eternity comes forth to be Ruler for, and as, and to the Ancient of Days.
"I watched Until thrones were set, And the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was like white snow; And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was flames of fire. A stream of fire issued forth and came from before Him.
Thousands of thousands ministered to Him, And ten thousands of ten thousands stood before Him. The court of judgment sat, And books were opened.
...
I watched in the night visions, And there with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming; And He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages might serve HIm.
His dominion is an eternal dominion, which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one that will not be destroyed." (See Daniel 7:9-10, 13-14)
Decide for yourselves. This picture speaks of the same matter in Micah's prophecy of One coming forth from days of eternity unto Jehovah God, the Father.
(But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, So little to be among the thousands of Judah,
From you there will come forth to Me He who is to be Ruler in Israel; His goings forth are from ancient times, from days of eternity. ) (Micah 5:2)
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Dec 18
@divegeester
I just now noticed this post. I did not see it before.
And it will be addressed.
3) the concept of an “eternal son” and an eternal father” is flawed even in the most basic of reasoning and also in scripture.
Firstly in logic, how can a son be equally eternal with his father when clearly a father comes before a son?
Secondly there is is this important scripture in psalms:
“I will proclaim the LORD's decree: He said to me, "You are my son; today I have become your father.
If the son was begotten of his father and it happened on a day call “today”, then how can that relationship as father and son be eternal?
You are wrong sonship. You make the most simple of truths complicated.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Dec 18
4 edits
Divegeester has brought up some points which I must address.
Do not be distracted with his hand waving about "hairdryer" or "waffle" or being with too much "vanity" or anything else. Though he may brag that he doesn't even READ what I wrote, nonetheless I will DEAL with his points.
FOCUS - How are his points ADDRESSED? And my reply to Divegeester's point 3 will not be written for his sake.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Dec 18
3 edits
3) the concept of an “eternal son” and an eternal father” is flawed even in the most basic of reasoning and also in scripture.
"Eternal Father" literally written in the Bible (Isa. 9:6)
So that cannot be flawed.
For a child is born to us, A Son is given to us; ... And his name will be called ... Eternal Father ...
"Eternal Father" is not flawed or Isaiah 9:6 is "flawed".
Who is the One to come forth to the Eternal Father whose goings forth are from days of eternity in Micah 5:2 ? Surely this must be the Son of God. Not only so. But He becomes "the Son of Man" .
It is so emphatic that this One is that pre-existing One before creation by Jesus saying the Son of Man would ascend to where He was before, IE. before His incarnation as a man.
"Then what if you saw the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?" (John 6:52)
He comes forth from eternity. And He incarnates as the Son of Man. He tells the disciples that they have not seen anything yet. What if they see the Son of Man ascend to heaven where He was BEFORE ?
The relationship of Father and Son, I believe, is more a statement to sharing the same LIFE rather than a time matter of Who came first and Who came second, timewise.
Of course in human language we consider the father to proceed any children. I think the kernel of the Father / Son revelation is that the Son and Father are one Life.
In Isaiah 9:6 the Son is even to be called "Eternal Father" .
If He is called Eternal Father He must be the embodiment of the Eternal Father. Just as He is called "Prince of Peace" there means He is that.
While Divegeester says this is not logical, it transcends our ability to figure out. We are limited and this One is firstly called Wonderful.
This same word in Hebrew is used with David says that such knowledge is TOO WONDERFUL, of TOO HIGH for him and that he cannot attain to it.
It is a WONDER.
"Oh knowledge too WONDERFUL for me! It is so high; I cannot attain to it." (Psalm 139:6)
We can enjoy. We can partake. He is "unto us" for our participation. But to fully understand by our limited created logic - He is too wonderful.
Now we have to pay attention to the BEGOTTEN Son matter below shortly.
24 Dec 18
@Sonship said:
“While Divegeester says this is not logical, it transcends our ability to figure out. We are limited and this One is firstly called wonderful”
Sonship you did realise that claiming your position is correct because it “transends our ability to figure it out” has to be the most laughable argument I have ever heard you make; but at the same time it typifies your whole spam-dump approach to debate.
Trying to stifle debate by clogging the thread with your endless waffle is not debate sonship.
My replies are pointed, succinct, specific, articulate, digestible, unequivocal in use of scripture and frankly my initial reply to your “dump” on page one is a complete rebuttal of your nonsensical claims of an eternal son which you claim “transcend our ability to figure out”.
Darn right they do; because it’s nonsense.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Dec 18
2 edits
... has to be the most laughable argument I have ever heard you make; but at the same time it typifies your whole spam-dump approach to debate.
As forewarned -
Do not be distracted with his hand waving about "hairdryer" or "waffle" or being with too much "vanity" or anything else. Though he may brag that he doesn't even READ what I wrote, nonetheless I will DEAL with his points.
FOCUS - How are his points ADDRESSED? And my reply to Divegeester's point 3 will not be written for his sake.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Dec 18
1 edit
Firstly in logic, how can a son be equally eternal with his father when clearly a father comes before a son?
God creating the universe out of nothing, logically is challenging.
God becoming a man to be nine months in the human womb, logically is challenging.
The Son of God dying as a curse for us that we may be saved - is true but is not logically easy to grasp. Probably in eternity we will have the reaction still of worship, awe, and wonderment.
The child who is God is "unto us" if we believe.
The Son who is given to us Whose name is "Eternal Father" is for us - is "unto us" .
Logic must bow to worship for He is Wonderful. Beware of anyone coming quickly along to claim to be able to extract the "laughable" wonderment of God.
This is GOD . This is a Person above whom a greater cannot be imagined. This is a Person above which none can be.
We who believe and partake of the Triune God just have to bare the laughter of the scoffers who claim we just missed the simplicity of God's nature.
This is usually the boast of human pride. This is the boast of not allowing the mind to be in a state of limitation.
Though we cannot fully understand we believe and can RECEIVE Him into us to be our life.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Dec 18
Please notice that God is going through a journey, so to speak, to come forth from eternity to DWELL with and in man.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the High and Exalted One who lives forever, whose name is Holy says this:" I live in a high and holy place, and with the oppressed and lowly of spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and revive the heart of the oppressed. (Isiah 57:15)
He comes to dwell with our spirit. He comes to be our life. He presents Himself as life to be blended with us - mingled with us - indwell us as one.
We can enjoy Him but He is Wonderful in that He is the uncreated and eternal Person.
These words will be called "spam" by the scoffer. I accept that.
We receive because we believe not because we can fully explain.
"Whosoever BELIEVES into Him may not perish but have eternal life." (See John 3:15)
Secondly there is is this important scripture in psalms:
“I will proclaim the LORD's decree: He said to me, "You are my son; today I have become your father.
Christ is said in Colossians to be TWICE the BEGOTTEN Son of God.
When He was resurrected He was BEGOTTEN the Firstborn among many brothers. He was designated the Son of God out of the resurrection from the dead.
Colossians says Christ is the
1.) Firstborn of all creation.
And
2.) the Firstborn from the dead.
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation. Because in Him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through HIm and unto Him.
And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from tje dead, that He Himself might have preeminence in all things;
For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell." (Col. 1:15-19)
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Dec 18
2 edits
When the apostle quoted Psalm 2 about the DAY that God begot His Son, he was speaking of the day of His RESURRECTION. He was not speaking about the day of His incarnation.
In resurrection He is the FIRST of the race of glorified sons of God. He is the FIRST to be BORN in resurrection as deified humanity.
Here is where the references to "this day I have begotten You" was used by the apostle.
And we announce to you the gospel of the promise made to the fathers.
That God has fully fulfilled the promise to us their children in RAISING UP JESUS, as it is also written in the second Psalm,
'You are My Son, this day have I begotten You."
And as to His having raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to corruption, ... " (See Acts 13:32,33)
The day of the Father begetting the Son in Psalm 2 and in Acts 13:33 is the day Christ was resurrected. His being resurrected was considered a BIRTH. He was BEGOTTEN to be the FIRST God-man in resurrection to be followed by many brothers.
Therefore He was begotten the FIRSTBORN from the dead.
For this reason of His resurrection also being a BEGETTING and BIRTH Romans says that Christ was designated the Son of God in power by the resurrection.
" ... the gospel of God ... Concerning His Son, who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Who was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness out of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord." (See Rom. 1:1-4)
1.) Christ was the pre-existing only begotten Son of God.
2.) Christ has become the Firstborn Son of God, designated so out of the resurrection from the dead.
"THIS DAY" denotes the day of His resurrection according to Acts 13:33.
In being the Firstborn from the dead He is not only pre-existing all creation, but became the FIRST and leading God-man to be accompanied by "many brothers" . He was designated for this office on the day of His resurrection.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Dec 18
1 edit
"And when He brings AGAIN the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, ... " (Heb. 1:6)
The SECOND coming of Jesus Christ will be as the FIRSTBORN from the dead, the FIRSTBORN Son of God.
So Christ has two statuses.
1.) As the pre-existing only begotten Son of God - Firstborn of all creation.
2.) As the Firstborn in resurrection
"This day I have begotten You" points to the day of the only begotten Son's resurrection to be designated the Son of God as the Firstborn from the dead.
He is the beginning of the new creation - the creation of the Body of Christ, the church. He is her Head. He is her beginning. He is of many sons the Firstborn one.
No, the Bible is not always so simple or so easy to understand.
A time comes to go deeper. A time comes to look beneath the surface and get deeper into its teaching.
24 Dec 18
@divegeester said1 John 5:7
Sonship dumping posts in the in an effort to stifle debate is poor forum. I’ve said my piece on page one, it is irrefutable, even with you hairdrier on full.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Three distinct entities in one.
Your "piece" on page one is refuted.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Dec 18
3 edits
Sonship dumping posts in the in an effort to stifle debate is poor forum. I’ve said my piece on page one, it is irrefutable, even with you hairdrier on full.
Debate is not "stiffled" at all by me.
Some things take time and patience to study.
Demeaning this care with words like "dumping" and "hairdryer" accomplish nothing much for your teaching a not eternal Son of God. .