23 Aug 12
Originally posted by KellyJayLots of people turn their lives around without reference to religion or refuge into religion. Good mentors for instance. There was recently a story on NPR of two girls in Philly whose family members were murdered or murdered other people and are in jail, the girls are 16 yo in HS. They were caught up in the hate of it all, wanting revenge, being rebellious in school but they realized they had a chance to make a difference not by praying to some god but by starting an organization that has kids mentoring kids, kids who would not listen to adults about trying to get them to be less violent.
Take issue that I'm allowed to make choices I shouldn't? I do have to say that
I may have done what you suggested, when I compared my life now to where
I was and where I was headed, mainly due to the contrast in my life now. I've
a lot more choices than one of my brothers who never changed, and his
choices get smaller all the time. So I credit Jesus Chr ...[text shortened]... th the one who threw me a life preserver or
better said, became a my life preserver?
Kelly
They are now mentoring a lot of kids and have gotten themselves noticed in the community.
They are doing much better at that than I myself, my dad was shot to death in a robbery at my parents mom and pop store, dad, stepdad and mom all shot. Mom survived, stepdad survived but my own dad died of a gunshot to the head.
I never really got over that and never even thought about forming a mentoring group, so those kids are way ahead of me in that regard.
23 Aug 12
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadPerhaps real freedom is being able to identify reckless and idiotic behavoir and avoid it. In the end it gives one greater ability to choose things that are actually beneficial.
The problem with the OP is that it equates reckless behaviour with 'personal freedom', then claims that people who moderate their behaviour gain personal freedom over time. The problem is that this gained personal freedom is apparently not reckless behaviour.
Its interesting that not only did the poster refuse to address this issue, but another poster specifically told him not to address it.
23 Aug 12
Originally posted by whodeySo if you start 'at the narrow end of the funnel', you will eventually be compensated for harsh self-imposed disciplined with sex and drugs.
I heard a pastor make an interesting comparison between freedom and a funnel. Basically, the small end of the funnel symbolized a lack of personal freedom and the wide top of the funnel symbolized enhanced personal freedom.
So if you begin your journey doing as you please like having sex with whoever you desire, doing drugs because it feels good, dropping ...[text shortened]... lease and pleasure yourself, your personal freedom expands as the funnel is turned on its head.
23 Aug 12
I just saw the movie of "Enron" and it's demise.
Now there is a very good reason why society is screwed up, and all the while smiling through their pearly whites and pissing off to Hawaii with their left over millions.
What do you say about guys like Jeffery Skilling ,whodey?
Any merits in living a life like his? (other than to demonstrate why not to )
23 Aug 12
Originally posted by sonhouseYou really should go back and read what started this thread, he was saying
Lots of people turn their lives around without reference to religion or refuge into religion. Good mentors for instance. There was recently a story on NPR of two girls in Philly whose family members were murdered or murdered other people and are in jail, the girls are 16 yo in HS. They were caught up in the hate of it all, wanting revenge, being rebellious ...[text shortened]... even thought about forming a mentoring group, so those kids are way ahead of me in that regard.
that a life without discipline will end up with less choices. Now that was what
I was agreeing with; however, a life with God can still be one without discipline
until God trains them into disciplining their lives as they repent.
Kelly
"However, if you start at the narrow end of the funnel and discipline yourself to do what you know is the right thing to do instead of just trying to please and pleasure yourself, your personal freedom expands as the funnel is turned on its head."
24 Aug 12
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayTake issue that I'm allowed to make choices I shouldn't?
Take issue that I'm allowed to make choices I shouldn't? I do have to say that
I may have done what you suggested, when I compared my life now to where
I was and where I was headed, mainly due to the contrast in my life now. I've
a lot more choices than one of my brothers who never changed, and his
choices get smaller all the time. So I credit Jesus Chr th the one who threw me a life preserver or
better said, became a my life preserver?
Kelly
No. Take issue with your putative creator in view of the fact that, according to your own lights, your "base nature" is such that you are significantly predisposed toward making choices that you shouldn't. If your base nature is really as depraved as you let on, then that reflects badly not as much on you as it does on your putative creator. So start placing the blame where it would actually be due, and quit prostrating yourself. Also, you can try viewing the glass as half full, rather than half empty.
Your story of righting the ship is a great one, full of courage. Don't forget to take a little credit for yourself. I just love it how your religious commitments condition you to take on personally all the blame for everything bad (even some stuff that upon scrutiny cannot reasonably be said to be within your control) while at the same time bestowing all the credit for everything good upon some two thousand year old zombie. At the end of the day, I see no reason at all for thinking your righting the ship has anything to do with the heavens. There is nothing at all God-indicating about your story: it's all quite consistent with your effecting positive change in yourself and your circumstances based on God-less internal resolve.
And the part about praising God for throwing you a life preserver sounds like selective memory. Have you forgotten that He was the one who shipped you off ill-equipped on your journey in the first place, with a leaky boat and poor swimming ability? Sounds like the least He could do.
25 Aug 12
Originally posted by LemonJelloThis is going to take a little more than an off the top of my head answer to
[b]Take issue that I'm allowed to make choices I shouldn't?
No. Take issue with your putative creator in view of the fact that, according to your own lights, your "base nature" is such that you are significantly predisposed toward making choices that you shouldn't. If your base nature is really as depraved as you let on, then that reflects badly ...[text shortened]... t place, with a leaky boat and poor swimming ability? Sounds like the least He could do.[/b]
do it justice, I'll try to get to it tonight or sometime in the next few days.
Kelly
25 Aug 12
Originally posted by LemonJelloA place to start, believe it or not the thing I like about God is how real life
[b]Take issue that I'm allowed to make choices I shouldn't?
No. Take issue with your putative creator in view of the fact that, according to your own lights, your "base nature" is such that you are significantly predisposed toward making choices that you shouldn't. If your base nature is really as depraved as you let on, then that reflects badly ...[text shortened]... t place, with a leaky boat and poor swimming ability? Sounds like the least He could do.[/b]
becomes even though we are living in faith. The pretend of false isn't something
that goes over well with God. Either your in or out, either you are doing it for
the right reasons or not, either you are forgiven or your not, either your really
sorry or your not, either you are walking with God or your not. I think God is
creating a place where that it will be what it is and it will not fall apart just
because of something so small as a desire. I know this isn't enough for what
you said, but it will be where I start from a little later today hopefully.
Kelly
27 Aug 12
Originally posted by sonhouseNot knocking that people lives can be turned around by other means, but what
Lots of people turn their lives around without reference to religion or refuge into religion. Good mentors for instance. There was recently a story on NPR of two girls in Philly whose family members were murdered or murdered other people and are in jail, the girls are 16 yo in HS. They were caught up in the hate of it all, wanting revenge, being rebellious ...[text shortened]... even thought about forming a mentoring group, so those kids are way ahead of me in that regard.
happened to me wasn't that, it was I had an experience that turned my life around
and has kept me through good times and bad. I have to give credit to God not any
one man or woman, because many of those people who I did get in my life after
I became a Christian were not the best of examples.
The biggest truth I came to see what no matter what, good, bad, very good, or
very bad God transcends this life which means a lot considering all the things
going on in this world. I’ll throw in why I agree with disliking religion, because
you can miss God because of it real easy, and God is the best part of life.
Kelly
28 Aug 12
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayIsn't life "real" regardless of your views on these matters? I suppose you mean that your faith imbues your life with meaningful content, which is certainly fair enough. And I gather from what you say here that being true to your closely held articles of faith is a very important thing for you that gives your life needed structure, etc, which is also fair enough.
A place to start, believe it or not the thing I like about God is how real life
becomes even though we are living in faith. The pretend of false isn't something
that goes over well with God. Either your in or out, either you are doing it for
the right reasons or not, either you are forgiven or your not, either your really
sorry or your not, either you a h for what
you said, but it will be where I start from a little later today hopefully.
Kelly
Let's totally forget about the bizarre funnel association that makes no sense. The point of the pastor, as I gather it, is that resigning one's will unto God only ostensibly suppresses personal freedom; and that personal freedom will in the end actually grow and mature within the implied system of theistic ethics. I think that's generally false for reasons I have already tried to outline. So far, I haven't seen anyone counter my argument yet.
31 Aug 12
Originally posted by LemonJelloActually I think we delude ourselves over and over without God in our lives
Isn't life "real" regardless of your views on these matters? I suppose you mean that your faith imbues your life with meaningful content, which is certainly fair enough. And I gather from what you say here that being true to your closely held articles of faith is a very important thing for you that gives your life needed structure, etc, which is also fa ...[text shortened]... I have already tried to outline. So far, I haven't seen anyone counter my argument yet.
thinking we are all of that and some. I think that without God there are a lot
of personal tastes being handed out as if they were some how something
much more meaningful than they really are. It does not matter what my
articles of faith are if they are not based upon something real. They may get
me along in life, but in the end if they fail there, we will spend a lot more time
after this life than we will living it.
The structure, I thought the Pastor was going for was that if you apply yourself
instead of just going with the flow it will end giving you the abilities to make
more meaningful choices. If you spend it purely on pleasure it will not take you
far.
If you want to add God to the mix than going back to my first point rings true,
it doesn't matter what you believe if in the end, the end requires something you
have thrown away, (a relationship with God) if nothing in this life goes with
us as far as those things we own, gaining the whole world will be meaningless
if one loses one soul.
Kelly