The Good Father

@philokalia said
Where did I make this argument?

Or is this based on FMF memory?

My memory is clearly sharper than yours.

Do you not remember the bit about chopping onions?

@philokalia said
I can't be bothered remembering the details of your version, FMF; I am not a full time poster here and I chat with other people quite like you all the time in other places and in real life.

You certainly make it sound like it's a waste of time talking to you.

@fmf said
I take it you are pretending not to have read the 1,000 or so words I wrote - for you - about the nature of faith in supernatural things and about the whole notion of supposedly choosing or deciding when one is in the realm of faith in supernatural beings that cannot be shown objectively to exist?

Where did you write 1,000 words on this?

Are you referring to your many disjointed posts about you not believing in hell as if it constitutes some thousand word essay?

LOL, why is it so hard for you to bring out arguments?

@philokalia said
Are you referring to your many disjointed posts about you not believing in hell as if it constitutes some thousand word essay?

If you think they are "disjointed", that's a matter for you. I think I am pretty cogent and consistent. Declaring them to be "disjointed" means you can just sidestep them and feign exasperation.

@philokalia said
LOL, why is it so hard for you to bring out arguments?

It isn't hard. They are all there still waiting for you to engage.

@fmf said
If you think they are "disjointed", that's a matter for you. I think I am pretty cogent and consistent. Declaring them to be "disjointed" means you can just sidestep them and feign exasperation.

So this is how you think internet debates occur..?

I bring up questions about free will and our own personal choices... and they can be batted away by pointing out that you do not believe in hell?

And you then accuse me of avoiding the discussion?

OK, we are having an interfacing problem here.

Would you like me to write a 1,000 word essay, and then you write a 1,000 word essay, on specifically free will and being punished for our own actions..?

@fmf said
It isn't hard. They are all there still waiting for you to engage.

Here's another idea:

I assign each one of your posts a number, and I respond to it with a specific number as well, and then we try to follow the numbers down the throad, for accountability.

@philokalia said
I bring up questions about free will and our own personal choices... and they can be batted away by pointing out that you do not believe in hell?

But this isn't what happened.

@philokalia said
Would you like me to write a 1,000 word essay, and then you write a 1,000 word essay, on specifically free will and being punished for our own actions..?

I don't mind how many words you type. I'd just be more interested if you engaged what I am saying, if you can be bothered that is.

@philokalia said
Here's another idea: I assign each one of your posts a number, and I respond to it with a specific number as well, and then we try to follow the numbers down the throad, for accountability.

Post as you see fit.

@fmf said
The supernatural "consequences" you believe exist for me for not sharing your religious beliefs are morally incoherent. The stuff you say about "free will" doesn't make any sense [the "choice" you think there is is something in your imagination... it's a kind of Piss On My Back, Tell Me Its Raining, And Offer Me An Imaginary Umbrella circular-logic-esque rhetorical device]. Compounding it all, you have no credible evidence that this mechanism of neverending torture even exists.

This post was basically batted away with a comment pretending not to understand it.

@fmf said
Granting of, or respecting, free will - in this case - would be showing me that eternal torture actually exists [you have not a shred of evidence that it does], and will be meted out for failure to live my life in the required way, and then I can use my free will to either live as required or face the consequences. You can't keep some ludicrous morally depraved system of torture, ...[text shortened]... nd - to most human beings - not credible, and then start emitting some word salad about "free will".

This was, for all intents and purposes, ignored.

@philokalia said
But all people have free will, and they have a right to exercise it independently of you.

If I receive an unsolicited text on my phone this morning, that tells me that I am being given $1,000,000 by someone in Nigeria, does my "free will" give me a "choice" between EITHER simply collecting the $1,000,000 and then going out and spending it OR not collecting the $1,000,000 and making do without it?

@fmf said
This post was basically batted away with a comment pretending not to understand it.

OK, thank you:

The supernatural "consequences" you believe exist for me for not sharing your religious beliefs are morally incoherent. The stuff you say about "free will" doesn't make any sense [the "choice" you think there is is something in your imagination... it's a kind of Piss On My Back, Tell Me Its Raining, And Offer Me An Imaginary Umbrella circular-logic-esque rhetorical device]. Compounding it all, you have no credible evidence that this mechanism of neverending torture even exists.

There's no argument actually here, FMF.

You said:
"Hell is morally incoherent."
"What you say about free will doesn't make sense"

None of these are really elaborated on, no reason is given, and it does not appear to be any kind of debating, but just asserting things... but, maybe the second one could be thought of as an argument:

"The choice you think is in your imagination."

If you are saying that choice is in your imagination, then that is a point to argue, but that is unclear.

Is that what you are arguing?

(The last part is just another accusation... )

@fmf said
This was, for all intents and purposes, ignored.

OK, let's check it out:

Granting of, or respecting, free will - in this case - would be showing me that eternal torture actually exists [you have not a shred of evidence that it does], and will be meted out for failure to live my life in the required way, and then I can use my free will to either live as required or face the consequences.

This is not the best description of it, but let's push on to see if you offer more than this 30+ word awkward sentence:

You can't keep some ludicrous morally depraved system of torture, for all intents and purposes, secret and - to most human beings - not credible, and then start emitting some word salad about "free will".

I had actually initially responded to this with:

"So, it is not a fair position because you personally believe that God, heaven, and hell are not real, and belief in them are impossible..?

Sure, I believe it is the case that those who truly cannot believe are potentially saved; this is talked about in the parable of Luke 12.

It is not a bad thought. But I simply think it is the case that a lot of people do not find it impossible to believe - they find it impossible to put down their pride and to have faith in God, and pretend to have the whole board figured out, saying that there can be no God or that it is unknowable."

And then you trailed off into just insults:
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/the-good-father.189533/page-3#post_4372813

So, when I wanted to debate this, you responded with insults, lol.

You are a very confusing man: short posts but with long, verbose sentences leading nowhere but to angry and personal gripes, and then accuse people of evading i when they are trying to get to the heart of the debate.

So let me ask y ou:

Are you responsible for the choices you make? Or are all the things we choose - and we believe - predetermined and beyond our control..?

Do you acknowledge that God does judge people based on who they are as individuals (Luke 12)?

We cannot discuss hell until we can pin down your position on these things because it would be useless to get ahead of ourselves only for you to [i]come up with extraneous, disingenuous argumentation to distract us again.