The Good Father

@fmf said
If I receive an unsolicited text on my phone this morning, that tells me that I am being given $1,000,000 by someone in Nigeria, does my "free will" give me a "choice" between EITHER simply collecting the $1,000,000 and then going out and spending it OR not collecting the $1,000,000 and making do without it?

So you argue against free will by coming up with a false dichotomy..?

Or are you just saying free will doesn't exist in a roundabout way?

@philokalia said
So you argue against free will by coming up with a false dichotomy..?

I don't see it as a false dichotomy. I see it as an apt analogy for the notion of the "free gift" that your version of "free will" somehow renders real, not just for you, but for everyone. What's more, the "not collecting the £1,000,000" according to your religious beliefs, is analogous to the imposition of a morally incoherent, brutally violent, neverending punishment.

@philokalia said
There's no argument here, FMF.

You said:
"Hell is morally incoherent."
"What you say about free will doesn't make sense"

None of these are really elaborated on, no reason is given, and it does not appear to be any kind of debating, but just asserting things.

I've been elaborating on it to you for three years. Have you simply forgotten it all?

When it comes to the beliefs posters like you and sonship have regarding the supernatural, all you are ever doing is "asserting things" where you have no evidence that the things you are talking about actually exist.

'Eternal torture in burning flames for not believing in Jesus is morally coherent BECAUSE IT JUST IS.' Right? When it boils down to it, that's what you've got. And remember, coherence and credibility are intertwined.

@philokalia said
We cannot discuss hell until we can pin down your position on these things because it would be useless to get ahead of ourselves only for you to [i]come up with extraneous, disingenuous argumentation to distract us again.

I am not using any extraneous or disingenuous argumentation.

@philokalia said
Sure, I believe it is the case that those who truly cannot believe are potentially saved; this is talked about in the parable of Luke 12.

What do you believe is the reason for non-believers to be spared being tortured for eternity?

Am I "saved" from being tortured because of Luke 12? My loss of faith was honest, real and sincere, and I am just as moral in my behaviour as I was when I was a Christian. I don't believe in Jesus. Am I "saved"?

@fmf said
I don't see it as a false dichotomy. I see it as an apt analogy for the notion of the "free gift" that your version of "free will" somehow renders real, not just for you, but for everyone. What's more, the "not collecting the £1,000,000" according to your religious beliefs, is analogous to the imposition of a morally incoherent, brutally violent, neverending punishment.

So why is free will not real?

@fmf said
I've been elaborating on it to you for three years. Have you simply forgotten it all?

When it comes to the beliefs posters like you and sonship have regarding the supernatural, all you are ever doing is "asserting things" where you have no evidence that the things you are talking about actually exist.

'Eternal torture in burning flames for not believing in Jesus is morall ...[text shortened]... t boils down to it, that's what you've got. And remember, coherence and credibility are intertwined.

"Refer to our arguments over the last three years..."

LOL

It is impossible to get you to plant your feet down and discuss something. When you are not sealioning, you just want to debate like quicksand: step into my pit of Forum drama and past references - and never leave!

@fmf said
I am not using any extraneous or disingenuous argumentation.

... And so you will not answer my questions... 🙄

... But these are important questions for the debate even if you are not planning on using disingenuous arguments. So, please do!

@fmf said
What do you believe is the reason for non-believers to be spared being tortured for eternity?

Am I "saved" from being tortured because of Luke 12? My loss of faith was honest, real and sincere, and I am just as moral in my behaviour as I was when I was a Christian. I don't believe in Jesus. Am I "saved"?

I do not know the case because it may actually be that there is somehow some impossibility for you to further believe. I cannot be the judge of that.

I can say that I believe that there are people who might have psychological dispositions which prevent them from drawing near to God who will receive His Mercy.

@philokalia said
You are a very confusing man: short posts but with long, verbose sentences leading nowhere but to angry and personal gripes, and then accuse people of evading i when they are trying to get to the heart of the debate.

This is a condescending mischaracterization of my contribution and I think the idea you "are trying to get to the heart of the debate" is a mischaracterization of yours. I think you have simply some relatively recently internalized dogma to recite and you just filter out questions and points that you don't care for.

@philokalia said
Are you responsible for the choices you make? Or are all the things we choose - and we believe - predetermined and beyond our control..?

What would be the moral purpose of torturing me for eternity for not finding your religious beliefs credible?

@philokalia said
Do you acknowledge that God does judge people based on who they are as individuals (Luke 12)?

Well, I am an agnostic atheist, and, if there is a God ~ a creator being ~ I don't believe it has communicated with us and I don't believe it has offered any rewards or made any threats.

You are relaying a threat - to me - of eternal torture that's been codified by your religion.

What is the purpose of that threat if I don't find it credible?

What is the moral purpose of carrying it out [in secret] after I die if it didn't succeed in deterring or coercing me while I was alive?

@philokalia said
So why is free will not real?

"Free will" when it comes to supernatural things? My answer about this is the same as it was a few days ago. Have you forgotten it?

@philokalia said
It is impossible to get you to plant your feet down and discuss something.

I have discussed the moral incoherence of eternal torture at length with you maybe a half a dozen times. My feet have been planted down repeatedly, constantly and consistently.

@philokalia said
And so you will not answer my questions...

I have.