The Good Father

@philokalia said
I can say that I believe that there are people who might have psychological dispositions which prevent them from drawing near to God who will receive His Mercy.

I don't know anything about "psychological dispositions" in this matter ~ sounds like you are trying to sound scientific ~ all I know is that I don't find to be credible what you believe to be credible.

You and I can just agree to disagree, honestly and sincerely, about the credibility or reality of the claims you make about the supernatural. There is nothing immoral in you believing what you believe, and there is nothing immoral in me believing what I believe.

So, given that, what would be the moral purpose of brutalizing me forever after I die as a result of you and I not believing the same things?

@philokalia said
But these are important questions for the debate even if you are not planning on using disingenuous arguments.

I am not using "disingenuous arguments".

@fmf said
The supernatural "consequences" you believe exist for me for not sharing your religious beliefs are morally incoherent. The stuff you say about "free will" doesn't make any sense [the "choice" you think there is is something in your imagination... it's a kind of Piss On My Back, Tell Me Its Raining, And Offer Me An Imaginary Umbrella circular-logic-esque rhetorical device]. Compounding it all, you have no credible evidence that this mechanism of neverending torture even exists.

This is honest. There is nothing "disingenuous" about it.

Now that you have recently become a Christian and joined the Orthodox Catholic Church, have you become unable to stand back a bit and look at this analogy...

Your religious concept of free will & torture seems to be little more than a "Piss On My Back, Tell Me It's Raining, And Offer Me An Imaginary Umbrella" ideology.

Are you really not able to step outside your beliefs just for a moment and recognize that that is an understandable non-believer perspective on your beliefs?

@fmf said
You are relaying a threat - to me - of eternal torture that's been codified by your religion. What is the purpose of that threat if I don't find it credible? What is the moral purpose of carrying it out [in secret] after I die if it didn't succeed in deterring or coercing me while I was alive?

What would be the moral purpose of keeping evidence [that non-believers are actually being tortured after they die] from the still-living non-believers? It's like some kind of epic passive-aggressive Lewis Carroll story.

For you to talk about people exercising "free will" in a scenario like this is baffling. If people's gut feeling tells them that the threat is real, good for them. What would be the moral purpose of punishing people for having a gut feeling that the threat was not credible?

@fmf said
This is a condescending mischaracterization of my contribution and I think the idea you "are trying to get to the heart of the debate" is a mischaracterization of yours. I think you have simply some relatively recently internalized dogma to recite and you just filter out questions and points that you don't care for.

[Personal drama; insult]

@fmf said
What would be the moral purpose of torturing me for eternity for not finding your religious beliefs credible?

[Loaded question lodged without any response to previous questions I've asked to try to direct the debate towards an actual discussion of free will. Also ignores other points about God's mercy.]

@philokalia said
[Personal drama; insult]

It's my take on the nature of your personal remarks.

@fmf said
Well, I am an agnostic atheist, and, if there is a God ~ a creator being ~ I don't believe it has communicated with us and I don't believe it has offered any rewards or made any threats.

You are relaying a threat - to me - of eternal torture that's been codified by your religion.

What is the purpose of that threat if I don't find it credible?

What is the moral purpose ...[text shortened]... g it out [in secret] after I die if it didn't succeed in deterring or coercing me while I was alive?

[Completely deflects the question to talk about own already established beliefs that are not relevant; deflection into a discussion of 'threats' and 'credibility' without any engagement with my content. I will be called someone who is running away from it if I insist that my initial points ought to be answered before responding to this, I am sure.]

@philokalia said
[Loaded question lodged without any response to previous questions I've asked to try to direct the debate towards an actual discussion of free will. Also ignores other points about God's mercy.]

This is a dodge.

I have addressed your reference to "free will".

Credibility and coherence are intertwined.

@fmf said
"Free will" when it comes to supernatural things? My answer about this is the same as it was a few days ago. Have you forgotten it?

I recall you saying that it basically does not exist, correct? Of course, please, clarify beyond that.

If we are to discuss something, it's best to get the words right out in front of us.

For a man who does not mind repeating personal drama & deflections, you are very tight lipped about actually bringing out your points that would be up for discussion.

@philokalia said
[Completely deflects the question to talk about own already established beliefs that are not relevant; deflection into a discussion of 'threats' and 'credibility' without any engagement with my content. I will be called someone who is running away from it if I insist that my initial points ought to be answered before responding to this, I am sure.]

If the notion of eternal torture being a threat cannot be addressed, then you certainly are running away from this topic.

@fmf said
I have discussed the moral incoherence of eternal torture at length with you maybe a half a dozen times. My feet have been planted down repeatedly, constantly and consistently.

.... and it is now impossible to discuss it even further because...?

... but we should be here meticulously reading your brief ramblings about threats and credibility..?

I thought you would want to spend your time debating an important issue - not evading it. Why are you even in this thread?

Why did you even make it? 😆

@fmf said
I have.

🙄 😴

@philokalia said
If we are to discuss something, it's best to get the words right out in front of us.

Like I said, my stance has not changed in the last few days.

@fmf said
I don't know anything about "psychological dispositions" in this matter ~ sounds like you are trying to sound scientific ~ all I know is that I don't find to be credible what you believe to be credible.

You and I can just agree to disagree, honestly and sincerely, about the credibility or reality of the claims you make about the supernatural. There is nothing immoral in you b ...[text shortened]... urpose of brutalizing me forever after I die as a result of you and I not believing the same things?

So y ou do not want to talk about the free will of the son, but you want only to talk about the punishment the son brings upon himself through his own actions?