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Originally posted by moonbusI cannot prove a final judgment. True.
And you hope there is. It's a draw (insufficient material to prove the point).
But let me ask you a simple one.
Look at the kind of man Jesus was. I ask you to read for sections of the New Testament, each dealing with His "passion" before He went to the cross. Each of these sections deals with His ordeal and struggle to stay true to the will of His Father.
Matthew 26:31 - 27:50 You have to be brave now and read it.
And the other three gospels cover the events from the last supper to His being crucified. These accounts should be read before one leaves this earth.
You should read them and ask WHY such a man took so seriously His need to bear our sins in His atoning death. That is not anyone doing this. That is a man like Jesus saying He is Son of God - Him doing this.
My simple question to you is "Don't you think He took it seriously? That is that He so righteous and so innocent, believed it was the will of His Father that He suffer and die in our place for the forgiveness of sins?"
Why do you think He took this so seriously?
Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke(04 Jan '14 21:45 / 2 edits) Thread 157295 (Page 7)
Please do not be grieved sir on my behalf. The lake of fire is an ancient myth with no more credibility or earthly relevance than the fire of Mordor. I thank the Lord that i am born in an age where i am immune to fear tactics and do not feel the compulsion to use them against others.
Originally posted by googlefudge
"There are no tenets of atheism.
And you know this because you have been told countless times what
atheism is.
So answer your own question.
EDIT: You are doing better at making posts where it's clear what you are
quoting and what your response is... so that's good."
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"Core tenets of atheism"
"Hey atheists and anyone else who wants to chat about it, I'm interested in seeing what you would say the core tenets of atheism would be. I found this at infidels and wanted to see how many would agree or what they would add to it:
There are many important ideas atheists promote. The following are just a few of them; don't be surprised to see ideas which are also present in some religions.
* There is more to moral behavior than mindlessly following rules.
* Be especially skeptical of positive claims.
* If you want your life to have some sort of meaning, it's up to you to find it.
* Search for what is true, even if it makes you uncomfortable.
* Make the most of your life, as it's probably the only one you'll have.
* It's no good relying on some external power to change you; you must change yourself.
* Just because something's popular doesn't mean it's good.
* If you must assume something, assume something easy to test.
* Don't believe things just because you want them to be true.
And finally (and most importantly):
* All beliefs should be open to question."
http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=169165
Concur?"
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Comment:
Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
"I thank the Lord that i am born in an age where i am immune to fear tactics and do not feel the compulsion to use them against others."
GD, I "thank the Lord" that you're seriously considering the remote possibility that an "ancient myth" may become credible after all. ~GB
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Originally posted by sonshipWe posted at the same time Sonship. Hope you read my reply to your post on the previous page?
I cannot prove a final judgment. True.
But let me ask you a simple one.
Look at the kind of man Jesus was. I ask you to read for sections of the New Testament, each dealing with His "passion" before He went to the cross. Each of these sections deals with His ordeal and struggle to stay true to the will of His Father.
[b]Matthew 26:31 - 27:50 ...[text shortened]... die in our place for the forgiveness of sins?"
Why do you think He took this so seriously?[/b]
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Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"GD, I "thank the Lord" that you're seriously considering the remote possibility that an "ancient myth" may become credible after all. ~GB"
(04 Jan '14 21:45 / 2 edits) Thread 157295 (Page 7)
Originally posted by googlefudge
[b]"There are no tenets of atheism.
And you know this because you have been told countless times what
atheism is.
So answer your own question.
EDIT: You are doing better at making posts where it's clear what you are
quoti ...[text shortened]... sly considering the remote possibility that an "ancient myth" may become credible after all. ~GB[/b]
Where have i stated that?!
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeOriginally posted by Ghost of a Duke
"GD, I "thank the Lord" that you're seriously considering the remote possibility that an "ancient myth" may become credible after all. ~GB"
Where have i stated that?!
"I thank the Lord that i am born in an age where i am immune to fear tactics and do not feel the compulsion to use them against others."
____________________
Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
"Where have i stated that?!"
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On Page 3 with this thoughtful expression of gratitude to "the Lord".
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyMerely an ironic play on words sir. Sorry to disappoint.
Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
"I thank the Lord that i am born in an age where i am immune to fear tactics and do not feel the compulsion to use them against others."
____________________
Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
"Where have i stated that?!"
_____________
On Page 3 with this thoughtful expression of gratitude to "the Lord".
Originally posted by sonshipI can't look at what kind of man Jesus was, and neither can you. He's not here. All we have is a heavily redacted story about some things he allegedly did and allegedly said.
I cannot prove a final judgment. True.
But let me ask you a simple one.
Look at the kind of man Jesus was. I ask you to read for sections of the New Testament, each dealing with His "passion" before He went to the cross. Each of these sections deals with His ordeal and struggle to stay true to the will of His Father.
[b]Matthew 26:31 - 27:50 ...[text shortened]... die in our place for the forgiveness of sins?"
Why do you think He took this so seriously?[/b]
I think someone wanted people to believe that all those things happened. Maybe they didn't happen as described; maybe some people just wanted other people to believe it, for their own interests.
Originally posted by JS357Hardly difficult to understand. The more people believe the theist's fantasy stories, the more the theist is convinced he must be on the right track. And if you can't persuade them with logic, why not use death threats? The end justifies the means.
GB plays a variation on this theme every so often, with pretty much the same results. He must get something out of it, heaven knows what.
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Hardly difficult to understand. The more people believe the theist's fantasy stories, the more the theist is convinced he must be on the right track. And if you can't persuade them with logic, why not use death threats? The end justifies the means.
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There have been some gospel tracts that I did not think were very good over the years.
But I honestly don't think that threatening is what is going on in many presentations of the Gospel.
Rather Christ's message was all-incompasing and completely rounded, including all angles.
I have asked a poster to consider the personality of the One through Whom we know most of what to expect about the final judging of man. I think like many, he is afraid to really consider through careful reading.
It is more convenient to ignore or assume deceptive motives in the New Testament writers.
What I try to get some people to understand is that from the mouth that spoke to the world the most comforting words of love, forgiveness, empathy, sympathy, pardon, and divine forebearance - from that very same mouth came the stern words that "the buck will stop somewhere" so to speak.
Too many teachings and stories of the Savior's love and mercy have been a comfort to millions for centuries came from life of Jesus of Nazareth. It is significant to many that though this is true, God's toleration of our sins does reach a conclusion at some point.
One should contemplate this forbearance and mercy shown really throughout the Bible but especially in the dying redemptive love of Jesus at His cross. HE believed that such was necessary.
"For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)
You do what you want. But I think a sinning man should ask himself -
Is there not absolutely LAST ... judgment ? IE. I'm finished judging, you're finished judging, even God is finished judging. The buck has stopped where the buck has to stop. Beyond, that point, no excuses, no sidestepping, no arguments left.
So I hear you in "Hey you're just threatening to scare me to agree."
Rather, I appeal you to consider it realistic that one of two places fallen mankind must be finally have conclusion of his transgressions against God.
1.) At the cross of Jesus on Calvary
2.) At the great white throne before the commencement of the eternal age of everlasting righteousness.
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I think someone wanted people to believe that all those things happened. Maybe they didn't happen as described; maybe some people just wanted other people to believe it, for their own interests.
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Brother Paul wrote some 13 or so books of the 27 New Testament books. Could you tell me what was the personal benefit you think he derived for himself in living as an apostle?
Can you indicate from his letters the possible personal prestige, financial gain, material wealth, or other benefit you think he gained from his Gospel preaching ?
"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us.
We are pressed on every side but not constricted; unable to find a way out but not utterly without a way out. Persecuted but not abandoned; cast down but not destroyed;
Always bearing about in the body the putting to death of Jesus that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who are alive are always being delivered unto death for Jesus' sake that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
So then death operates in us, but life in you." (2 Cor. 4:7-12)
What he is saying here is that the more they suffer intensely the greater benefit of spiritual life is secured for those for whom they labor. "We are uncomfortable and except for the grace of Jesus, cannot STAND it. But all the more our ministry of the Gospel is enriched to you, securing for you spiritual life, the more intensely we suffer.
What are these goodies that the apostles were sneakily grabbing for themselves in pouring out their lives to establish followers of Jesus ?
Originally posted by sonshipYou're not making a moral case of any kind, sonship. You're not even arguing that it is justice. You're simply claiming: people will be tortured ~ for eternity ~ by an angry, vengeful supernatural being that you believe in.
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There have been some gospel tracts that I did not think were very good over the years.
But I honestly don't think that threatening is what is going on in many presentations of the Gospel.
Rather Christ's message was all-incompasing and completely rou ...[text shortened]... the great white throne before the commencement of the eternal age of everlasting righteousness.
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThere are still no tenets of atheism.
(04 Jan '14 21:45 / 2 edits) Thread 157295 (Page 7)
Originally posted by googlefudge
[b]"There are no tenets of atheism.
And you know this because you have been told countless times what
atheism is.
So answer your own question.
EDIT: You are doing better at making posts where it's clear what you are
quoti ...[text shortened]... sly considering the remote possibility that an "ancient myth" may become credible after all. ~GB[/b]
NONE of the things you just posted are tenets of atheism.
I would mostly agree with all those statements, but they are not tenets of atheism,
they follow from rational skepticism.
Originally posted by sonshipWhat I try to get some people to understand is that from the mouth that spoke to the world the most comforting words of love, forgiveness, empathy, sympathy, pardon, and divine forebearance - from that very same mouth came the stern words that "the buck will stop somewhere" so to speak.
[b] Hardly difficult to understand. The more people believe the theist's fantasy stories, the more the theist is convinced he must be on the right track. And if you can't persuade them with logic, why not use death threats? The end justifies the means.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... the great white throne before the commencement of the eternal age of everlasting righteousness.[/b]
And that "buck", you poor misguided fool, is not believing. Not believing your fantasy stories will get us into hell.
I know you are a fan of preaching and not of conversation and certainly not of shutting up and listening to what others are telling you, but I'll tell you again: You need people like me to believe your fairy tales, because the more people are on your side, the easier it gets to convince yourself you are correct. This is partly why so much - absurdly much - emphasis is put on believing. Why not believing will supposedly lead to an eternity of unimaginable suffering and believing will lead to an eternity in perfect happiness.
There is no logic behind a god attaching so much importance on us believing in his existence.
You need fellow believers to strengthen your own belief. Why do think believers of one particular faith often seek each other out?
moonbus: I think someone wanted people to believe that all those things happened. Maybe they didn't happen as described; maybe some people just wanted other people to believe it, for their own interests.
sonship: Paul wrote some 13 or so books of the 27 New Testament books. Could you tell me what was the personal benefit you think he derived for himself in living as an apostle?
Can you indicate from his letters the possible personal prestige, financial gain, material wealth, or other benefit you think he gained from his Gospel preaching ?
It's not about what Paul wrote or allegedly wrote or what was subsequently attributed to him. It's not about what Matthew or Mark or Luke or John wrote or allegedly wrote or what works were subsequently and pseudonymously attributed to them.
It's about the people who came after Paul and the gospelers, the ones who made the decision (at the Council of Nicea in 325) to canonize just his 13 or so letters and just those four gospels and not the hundreds of other letters and gospels which existed and which give a rather different slant to the message of "glad tidings" (see, for example, the Nag Hammadi Library, especially the Gospel of Thomas).
What was the motive, the gain? The most mundane one imaginable: power over other people, "render unto Caesar."
Guess who made the decision? The bishops of Rome, the people who saw their chance to gain control over the most powerful empire the world had ever seen. A glittering prize indeed. They had just converted Constantine, and it was Constantine who proclaimed the Edict of Milan in 313 which decreed tolerance for Christianity in the empire. It was also Constantine who called the First Council of Nicaea in 325; it's no coincidence which scrolls were canonized: precisely the ones which handed political legitimacy to Roman bishops, Constantine's favorites. The rest is a history which wishes to conceal itself behind a veil of 'theology'.
EDIT: There is a remarkable sentence at the beginning of the Gospel of Thomas which says that whoever understands Jesus's message is already in possession of eternal life. The rest of Tomas is substantially convergent with the synoptic gospels (love thy neighbor etc., but without any of the supernatural stuff--no virgin birth, no resurrection).
That one sentence invalidates both Paul's claim that faith is in vain if there was no resurrection, and the Fundamentalist position that the salvation of man is worked by the death of Jesus as atonement for the sins of man. It invalidates Paul's claim because, if a man need only understand the message to attain eternal life, then there is no need for a resurrection. It invalidates the Fundamentalist position because, if a man need only understand, then there is no need for atonement (which is point 5 on the list of "fundamentals" ).
It is obvious why the Council of Nicea in AD 325 voted to condemn the Gospel of Thomas as apocryphal and deny it canonical status: if a man need only understand, then he has no need of an Imperial Church with central authority at Rome. The church would have obviated itself had it accepted the Gospel of Thomas as canonical.