14 Feb 12
2 edits
Originally posted by whodeyHi, I've stated my position several times at great length in my Godhead threads with the JW's but briefly:
What is your take then?
I believe fully in the Gospel and the complete and finished work of Christ at calvary. I do not believe in trinities whatsoever irrespective whatever physical or literal inferences there are to doves, ghosts, spirits of God, spirits of Christ, comes let us, Jesus praying to his father, or any other apparent indicator that the God who initially said of himself "I am ONE" many many times throught the OT is in fact...three.
I believe the the man Jesus Christ was the invisible God made visible in human form, who made him[self] a little lower than the angels, who made himeself reliant on the Father the way we are reliant on the Father, who became "the invisible God made visible" and wrapped himself in a human veil of flesh, that was torn for us to all/anyone who comes may enter in.
The mystery of the Godhead is not of one God [hear oh Israel the Lord your God is ONE] getting it a bit wrong in the OT and is actually three in the NT - the mystery is simply "God in Christ reconciling himself to the world".
Isaiah 6:9
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Matt 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name [singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
After recieving this instruction the disiples exclusively baptised in the name of Jesus. Why would they do that if they did not acknowledge the the "name of God given amoungst men by which which we may be saved" is in fact the name (and the given identity for salvation) of the father, and the name of the son and the name of the holy spirit.
14 Feb 12
5 edits
Originally posted by divegeesteIts really quite interesting, for clearly this is an example of bias in translation, they
h, found it!
dieval English theologians believed the Holy Spirit (the Third Person of the Holy Trinity) was unknown to the Hebrews and Jews of the Old Testament era. They believed he first appeared at the festival of Pentecost recorded in Acts chapter 2. This belief created a dilemma for them. For if the Third Person was unknown prior to his app
So, robbie you were saying that you wern't talking about the trinity...?
believed the trinity and they translated the phrase according to their biased view point.
Apparition or ghost is not a valid translation of the Greek term Ruach. Yes i am
uninterested in the trinity, merely in translation.
14 Feb 12
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsrubbish, there are many entities that are personalised in the Bible but are no part of
I already told you. It is to emphasize that He is a person just like the Father
and the Son. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost or the Holy Person that can
not be touched physically. 😏
P.S. The Holy Ghost may be seen, but not touched.
The Son may be seen and touched.
The Father is never seen or touched.
the unholy trinity, wisdom springs to mind. Can you think of any other instance where
Ruach is translated as ghost, no, neither can i, blatant bias in translation and
introduction of non biblical elements into the text. Soooo lets get this RJH, the
translators did so, to make the text appear as if the Holy Spirit was a person. Is this a
freidian slip or a confession of bias.
14 Feb 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterIs the search for truth and accurate knowledge not a spiritual matter? I think so and
I really don't think that it matters that much because the Bible is obviously referring to the same thing. You worry too much about these technicalities and not enough about spiritual matters.
so do others, for example American lexicographer Noah Webster who amended the
King James Version of the Bible in 1833 and published the Webster Bible writes in
the preface to that edition,
'whenever words are understood in a sense different from that which they had been
introduced and different from that of the original languages, they do not represent
to the reader the Word of God'.
Clearly this is an instance where words have been introduced that give a different
sense than that intended by the original language and it therefore does not
represent the word of God. Webster translates the phrase accurately as the Holy
Spirit an impersonal force which emanates from God and is utilised to accomplish
his will, not the third member of an imaginary and unholy trinity.
14 Feb 12
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWe see here in Luke that "spirit" and "ghost" mean the same.
Is the search for truth and accurate knowledge not a spiritual matter? I think so and
so do others, for example American lexicographer Noah Webster who amended the
King James Version of the Bible in 1833 and published the Webster Bible writes in
the preface to that edition,
'whenever words are understood in a sense different from that whic is utilised to accomplish
his will, not the third member of an imaginary and unholy trinity.
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto
them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that
they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do
thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:
handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
(Luke 24:36-39 KJV)
Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said
to them, “Peace to you.” But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed
they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do
doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself.
Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
(Luke 24:36-39 NKJV)
They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them,
“Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands
and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and
bones, as you see I have.”
(Luke 24:36-39 NIV)
We see again that "spirit" and "ghost" mean the same in Matthew.
And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying,
It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
(Matthew 14:26 KJV)
And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying,
“It is a ghost!” And they cried out for fear.
(Matthew 14:26 NKJV)
When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a
ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.
(Matthew 14:26 NIV)
14 Feb 12
Originally posted by RJHindsGhosts usually are dead, didn't you know? No, of course not, you are a creationist.
Where did you get the idea that a spirit or ghost is dead? Certainly not
from the Holy Bible.
This is what Wikipedia says:
"In traditional belief and fiction, a ghost is the soul or spirit of a deceased person or animal that can appear, in visible form or other manifestation, to the living. Descriptions of the apparition of ghosts vary widely from an invisible presence to translucent or barely visible wispy shapes, to realistic, life-like visions. The deliberate attempt to contact the spirit of a deceased person is known as necromancy, or in spiritism as a séance."
14 Feb 12
Originally posted by FabianFnasIt is the physical body that the spirit or ghost occupied that is dead.
Ghosts usually are dead, didn't you know? No, of course not, you are a creationist.
This is what Wikipedia says:
"In traditional belief and fiction, a ghost is the soul or spirit of a deceased person or animal that can appear, in visible form or other manifestation, to the living. Descriptions of the apparition of ghosts vary widely from an invisible ...[text shortened]... contact the spirit of a deceased person is known as necromancy, or in spiritism as a séance."
The spirit is alive. The Holy Spirit never occupied a physical body and
He is alive. 😏
14 Feb 12
Originally posted by divegeesterThe mystery of the Godhead is not of one God [hear oh Israel the Lord your God is ONE] getting it a bit wrong in the OT and is actually three in the NT - the mystery is simply "God in Christ reconciling himself to the world".
Hi, I've stated my position several times at great length in my Godhead threads with the JW's but briefly:
I believe fully in the Gospel and the complete and finished work of Christ at calvary. I do not believe in trinities whatsoever irrespective whatever physical or literal inferences there are to doves, ghosts, spirits of God, spirits of Christ, ...[text shortened]... for salvation) of the father, and the name of the son and the name of the holy spirit.
------------------------divegeester--------------------------------------------
But dive - just think about what you are saying! If you admit that God was in Christ then you admit that God was in Jesus walking around on the earth. Therefore it follows that God was both in a place called Nazareth on earth but also in glory in heaven - AT THE SAME TIME. Note that Jesus prays to his Father whilst on earth - therefore in your theology this is an example of "God in Christ" praying to God the Father. Or God praying to Himself. That's kind of like two aspects of God working in unison already. !!!!!
Even in your theology God has to have two aspects to his nature (eg God in Christ reconciling himself , and also God the Father). So what's your issue with the trinity?
No trinitarian believes that God is not "One" , they just believe that God has different aspects to his character and personality. No trinitarian believes that God is a split or fragmented God. Note that Jesus (God in Christ) prays to the Father asking that "they might be ONE , just as you and I are ONE ". It's clear that "God in Christ" is united as ONE with the Father.
14 Feb 12
Originally posted by RJHindsDoes the ghost you worship also have a spirit in it? Or it is it just free fantasies of yours?
It is the physical body that the spirit or ghost occupied that is dead.
The spirit is alive. The Holy Spirit never occupied a physical body and
He is alive. {moron symbol deleted}
14 Feb 12
Originally posted by RJHindsthen why not render the verse spirit, the holy spirit or they imagined that they had
We see here in Luke that "spirit" and "ghost" mean the same.
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto
them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that
they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do
thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and ...[text shortened]... ere terrified. “It’s a
ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.
(Matthew 14:26 NIV)
seen a spirit?
14 Feb 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterI'm not sure where it is you are disagreeing with me.
The mystery of the Godhead is not of one God [hear oh Israel the Lord your God is ONE] getting it a bit wrong in the OT and is actually three in the NT - the mystery is simply "God in Christ reconciling himself to the world".
------------------------divegeester--------------------------------------------
But dive - just think about what you are sa ...[text shortened]... and I are ONE ". It's clear that "God in Christ" is united as ONE with the Father.
I see different "aspects", although I prefer the term "manifestations" of the one God.
I know of many trinitarians (some in here) who declare "3 spearate and distinct personalities in the Godhead"; this is a pagan view of multiple Gods.
Jesus said, if you have seen me you have seen the farther.
The fact that he prayed to his Father is no more indicative of multiple distinct personalities than Jesus dying is indicative of a lack of his deity and subsequent imortality.
Look to the OT and what God reveals of himself. He said "I am the LORD and I change not"