21 Apr 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneHuh? 33 even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
33 so, you too, [b]when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
An explanation that would be consistent within the words of Jesus would be that in M35:34 ...[text shortened]... His way of saying that all the events He has detailed will occur within a single generation.[/b]
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.
When he said "you (ye)" you "see know(sic) reason to infer that he necessarily meant the generation to which he was speaking."??
That is a most implausible reading.
21 Apr 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterIn "On Being A Christian", the theologian Hans Kung also flat out admits that Jesus mispredicted his Second Coming, thereby underscoring the fallibility of his human aspect.
In Matthew 24:34 (I think) Jesus says “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”
CS LEWIS comments on this - “Say what you like," we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Co ...[text shortened]... ust went a bit far in his predictions. Even the best public speaker makes mistakes?
If Jesus was man enough to suffer pain, then might he have been man enough to evince fallibility too?
21 Apr 08
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeYes , but this is a different kind of fallibility . Rather than human frailty , it's just a basic mistake. Jesus's ability to experience suffering to me is a positive , but I cannot see a big positive in this. People would have sold their livelihoods and been killed on the basis of this mistake. What's more , we are asked as Christians to judge a prophet on the accuracy of his prophecies. If the text has been translated correctly and understood correctly then Jesus made a direct prophecy that was proven to be false. It's clearly not a sustainable position. If a cult figure (eg David Koresh) made unfulfilled predictions about the end of the world we christians would (and do) dismiss them as a false prophet . I believe there is some other explanation.
In "On Being A Christian", the theologian Hans Kung also flat out admits that Jesus mispredicted his Second Coming, thereby underscoring the fallibility of his human aspect.
If Jesus was man enough to suffer pain, then might he have been man enough to evince fallibility too?
Do you not see the gravity of the problem?
22 Apr 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterI am sorry but I cant see it. I don't see how that is any more problematic than the conflicting lists of Jesus' ancestors, or other conflicting accounts etc.
I'm quite willing to accept mistakes in other areas. This particular verse and set of verses is more problematic than many because it involves a testable prophecy in theory. If Jesus did actually definitely say that all these things would happen in their lifetime and they didn't then its a problem. I would have thought you of all people would appreciate this.
It is clear to me that a significant proportion of the gospels are made up to either fit prophesy or to teach theology - they are not historical records and not intended to be by the writers.
It is also clear that most people of the time - and a significant number of people ever since - even to this day - believed that the world was coming to an end within their lifetimes. They also somehow reconcile the two concepts of "I know it is coming to an end soon" and "You can never predict when it will come."
I think the doomsday paranoia is commonplace and I have experienced it myself in the past (though not in relation to biblical doomsday).
I think the the psychological phenomena has to do with pascals wager. You realize that the chance of you being right is slim yet the penalty if you choose the opposite and are wrong is enormous. You also - often incorrectly - judge that choosing for the doomsday scenario will not cost you significantly if you turn out to be wrong.
This same phenomena operates with many theists in their belief (which is where pascals wager is based). I don't know how large an effect it has on theists but it would certainly make agnostics lean towards theism.
22 Apr 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterAnd why is that a problem? I still fail to see how theists can justify their belief that death is a terrible thing. It just doesn't coincide with what they claim they believe.
People would have sold their livelihoods and been killed on the basis of this mistake.
What's more , we are asked as Christians to judge a prophet on the accuracy of his prophecies.
A rather stupid request. No good prophet ever makes clear indisputable prophesies, and people are always ready to creatively interpret their prophesies anyway - as has been shown in this particular case.
Also, and more importantly, Jesus was not, and as far as I know, did not claim to be a prophet.
I believe there is some other explanation.
I still don't see what is wrong with the obvious explanation - Jesus never said those words. Oh I see it now. Then you would have to question all the rest of the gospels. But you already admit that you do that. So whats the problem?
22 Apr 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadI don't rate pascal's wager myself. I think it's a kop out.
I am sorry but I cant see it. I don't see how that is any more problematic than the conflicting lists of Jesus' ancestors, or other conflicting accounts etc.
It is clear to me that a significant proportion of the gospels are made up to either fit prophesy or to teach theology - they are not historical records and not intended to be by the writers.
It is ...[text shortened]... ge an effect it has on theists but it would certainly make agnostics lean towards theism.
The reason why it is a problem is that the prophesy (or prediction if you prefer) is regarding the most important event possible in earth history (ie the final judgement and second coming). I am not concerned if there are discrepancies between ancestry accounts in the Gospels , I would expect differences just like I don't expect the Guardian to say the same thing as the Times. If the Son Of God says that the world will end in about 100 years max (by implication) then this is a slightly significant prediction (LOL) . If it dosn't happen then I want to know why. Something has gone badly wrong.
My best guess is that there was a slight game of chinese whispers and the odd word got changed or emphasised to change the meaning.
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22 Apr 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterBut Jesus does admit that he is fallible. He tells, in this passage, that only the Father knows when the apocalypse will occur. His knowledge is limited, and therefore, possible to fallibility.
Yes , but this is a different kind of fallibility . Rather than human frailty , it's just a basic mistake. Jesus's ability to experience suffering to me is a positive , but I cannot see a big positive in this. People would have sold their livelihoods and been killed on the basis of this mistake. What's more , we are asked as Christians to judge a prop ...[text shortened]... . I believe there is some other explanation.
Do you not see the gravity of the problem?
22 Apr 08
Originally posted by Conrau KNot really; he says he knows it's going to happen but doesn't know exactly when (what "day and hour"😉. But he does claim a general knowledge of about when it will happen i.e. this generation's lifetime.
But Jesus does admit that he is fallible. He tells, in this passage, that only the Father knows when the apocalypse will occur. His knowledge is limited, and therefore, possible to fallibility.
22 Apr 08
One more time folks, ... ThinkOfOne had it right.
You all need to do your homework. I am trying to be patient with some of you, because over and over again, you are acting like you think that by your intellectual prowess you are going to shame us poor, stupid, uneducated, un-thinking Christians! But all you are doing is arrogantly spouting opinions with no knowledge of what you are talking about whatsoever. Did anyone take the time to find a reference for this C.S. Lewis quote to see if it was real or not? Can anyone tell me where it comes from?
Anyway, some of you realize that the New Testament was written in Greek, I hope. If you will take the time to look at the Greek word in this passage, and look up it's definition and how it is used (a commonly used Bible study tool is Strong's Concordance), you can see that it is often translated 'this', and can also be translated 'this same'.
One more time, ... ThinkOfOne was right on. To the rest of you who want to continue to argue the point, ... your ignorance is showing 😳
22 Apr 08
1 edit
Originally posted by dizzyfingersEssay "The World's Last Night" (1960), found in The Essential C.S. Lewis, p-385.
One more time folks, ... ThinkOfOne had it right.
You all need to do your homework. I am trying to be patient with some of you, because over and over again, you are acting like you think that by your intellectual prowess you are going to shame us poor, stupid, uneducated, un-thinking Christians! But all you are doing is arrogantly spouting opinions the rest of you who want to continue to argue the point, ... your ignorance is showing 😳
BTW, KM your first post is a cut and paste from: http://www.worldwithoutend.info/bbc/books/articles/cslewis.htm
and some of the words contained are the author's, not CS Lewis'. Attribution would have been more intellectually honest.
22 Apr 08
Originally posted by Conrau KPlease. Limited knowledge does not equal fallibility. Do I have to explain, or can you think that through for yourself?
But Jesus does admit that he is fallible. He tells, in this passage, that only the Father knows when the apocalypse will occur. His knowledge is limited, and therefore, possible to fallibility.
And please read the passage. Very soon after, He says, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away."
Sounds like he was claiming infallibility, don't you think?
Oh, by the way, another question, ... how many people do you think will be following you or arguing about your words 20 centuries after you've left earth? 😉
22 Apr 08
2 edits
How do we understand "generation" in Matt. 24:34 ?
Matthew 24:34 says "Truly I say to you that this generation shall by no means pass away until all these things happen."
Generation in this verse does not refer to a generation defined according to an age or a person, like generations mentioned in 1:17; it refers to a generation defined by the moral condition of the people like the generations in
Matt. 11:16;
12:39, 41-42, 45;
Prov. 30:11-14
22 Apr 08
Originally posted by no1marauderGlad to see someone did their homework.
Essay "The World's Last Night" (1960), found in The Essential C.S. Lewis, p-385.
I read some of C.S. Lewis' works shortly after I became a Christian, like, The Great Divorce, Mere Christianity, The Four Loves, the Narnia series, and some of the science-fiction trilogy (Perelandra, That Hideous Strength, ... I forget the other title). I have recently picked up "The Abolition of Man."
I admire his knowledge of literature and philosophy, and his writing ability, but I've also read his Reflections on the Psalms, and soon realized he was no Bible scholar.
22 Apr 08
Originally posted by dizzyfingersThinkofOne's explanation is strained and implausible. Throughout the chapter (and the parallel one Mark 13), Jesus is saying Ye (you) will see this, you will experience this, etc. etc. etc. To have him suddenly switch to meaning that he meant a future generation will see and experience the things he describes is extremely dubious.
One more time folks, ... ThinkOfOne had it right.
You all need to do your homework. I am trying to be patient with some of you, because over and over again, you are acting like you think that by your intellectual prowess you are going to shame us poor, stupid, uneducated, un-thinking Christians! But all you are doing is arrogantly spouting opinions ...[text shortened]... the rest of you who want to continue to argue the point, ... your ignorance is showing 😳