I have been bewildered at the lack of certainty regard the central tenet of Christianity among professed Christians and those who were formerly Christians. Its like asking a chess player, what is the fundamental principle which governs all chess games and receiving no answer.
1. The kingdom of the heavens in the book of Matthew is the overcoming Christian church life and the reward of the millennial kingdom to the overcomers. - Jaywill
2. The first part on the earth with Christ as King, for a finite period in which Christ will eliminate sin and death. When death is conquered Christ will hand over the Kingdom to God and God will be all in all. This is the second part and will last for all eternity. All things will be new, new heavens and new earth and in the New Jerusalem. Mankind will be no more and all inhabitants will be spirit beings with bodies fashioned like that of Jesus. - RajK
3. A golden eagle descended and carried me away to its lair and wiped my memory and turned me into a humanist so that I could not possibly say. - FMF
Let me adress these.
1. 'Overcoming Christian life', is typical of the platonic influence which permeates Jaywills perspective turning all matter into evil with only the spiritual deemed good. The problem is that it leads to airy fairy nonsensical meanderings which require walls and walls of text to explain in direct contrast to the simplicity and clarity of Christ himself.
2. Rajk's seems plausible but cannot be Biblically established for the Bible clearly states that the meek will inherit the earth and reside forever upon it. Psalm 37: 9-11 and v 29, 'The righteous will possess the earth and they will live forever on it.'
3. Unworthy of comment.
Now I don't want to brow beat anyone but please express what your understanding of the Kingdom of God is and see if it stands up to Biblical scrutiny.
06 Jun 16
Originally posted by robbie carrobieTwo of the more outspoken Christian's have stated their views and you dismissed them both. How will you know when you have the right one?
I have been bewildered at the lack of certainty regard the central tenet of Christianity among professed Christians and those who were formerly Christians. Its like asking a chess player, what is the fundamental principle which governs all chess games and receiving no answer.
1. The kingdom of the heavens in the book of Matthew is the overcoming ...[text shortened]... s what your understanding of the Kingdom of God is and see if it stands up to Biblical scrutiny.
BTW, What is the fundamental principle which governs all chess games?
06 Jun 16
Originally posted by yoctobyteYes but I gave reasons, i did not dismiss them out of hand or arbitrarily. Jaywills text was extra biblical, Rajk's was not supported by Biblical evidence. All I want is for people to throw out their ideas. I will not get personal, or berate anyone, or judge anyone.
Two of the more outspoken Christian's have stated their views and you dismissed them both. How will you know when you have the right one?
BTW, What is the fundamental principle which governs all chess games?
The fundamental principle which governs all chess games is mobility. The game ends when one player has no mobility or as we say is checkmated.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThere are two issues relating to my post:
I have been bewildered at the lack of certainty regard the central tenet of Christianity among professed Christians and those who were formerly Christians. Its like asking a chess player, what is the fundamental principle which governs all chess games and receiving no answer.
1. The kingdom of the heavens in the book of Matthew is the overcoming ...[text shortened]... s what your understanding of the Kingdom of God is and see if it stands up to Biblical scrutiny.
1. When the Bible says for ever or everlasting etc it sometimes mean for an era or for a period of time. Im not saying that your Psalm quotes are like that. Just saying it is worth checking more carefully what it means
2. The Bible is also clear that the earth will be eventually destroyed, and it does not refer to earth as being mans adminstration. It describes it in such langauge that you cannot mistake it for anything but complete destruction of the entire planet. Christ said also that heaven and earth will pass away.
The issue of the Kingdom details is not a crucial matter for me. The issue of HOW TO GET INTO GODS KINGDOM is crucial. Many of the details are Gods secret. Although Im happy to discuss it.
06 Jun 16
Originally posted by Rajk999umm actually the Bible cannot say that the earth will be destroyed, otherwise Psalm 37 makes no sense or its contradicting itself. A new heavens and a new earth may not be literal, for Peter himself clearly shows that 'the world', that was destroyed in the flood was the world of mankind. There is no need to look at the Psalms again, the language is simple and clear, the righteous will reside on the earth forever.
There are two issues relating to my post:
1. When the Bible says for ever or everlasting etc it sometimes mean for an era or for a period of time. Im not saying that your Psalm quotes are like that. Just saying it is worth checking more carefully what it means
2. The Bible is also clear that the earth will be eventually destroyed, and it does not refer to ...[text shortened]... GODS KINGDOM is crucial. Many of the details are Gods secret. Although Im happy to discuss it.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell lets see what Peter said regarding the flood
umm actually the Bible cannot say that the earth will be destroyed, otherwise Psalm 37 makes no sense or its contradicting itself. A new heavens and a new earth may not be literal, for Peter himself clearly shows that 'the world', that was destroyed in the flood was the world of mankind. There is no need to look at the Psalms again, the language is simple and clear, the righteous will reside on the earth forever.
.. the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
And what he says regarding the day of the Lord:
. the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up
we, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. .
You can hardly equate the two especially as Christ also said that the heavens and earth will pass away.
06 Jun 16
Originally posted by Rajk999yes but then again we mist reconcile the idea to the Psalms and other verses which state that the Earth will endure forever. In this case the heavens and the earth must be symbolic, as are the elements which form the constituent part of the heavens and the earth.
Well lets see what Peter said regarding the flood
[b] .. the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
And what he says regarding the day of the Lord:
. the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up
we ...[text shortened]... hardly equate the two especially as Christ also said that the heavens and earth will pass away.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieLike I said, I have no interest in trying to explain what I believed 10, 20 or 30 years ago ago. Whether or not it [i.e. what my notion of "The Kingdom of God" used to be back when I was a Christian] coincides with what yours just so happens to be now ~ or sonship's or Rajk999's for that matter ~ or whether I had my theology "right" or "wrong" back when I was a Christian, is completely immaterial. Same goes for you supposedly finding it "incredible". It is completely immaterial.
I still find it incredible that you were a Christian for twenty years and cannot tell us what the Kingdom of God is.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNobody is arguing that one.
I have always liked the verse from the King James version of the Bible,
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder - Isaiah 9:6
Clearly then this Kingdom is a heavenly government, is it not?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI think I will go with what Jesus said about heavens and earth passing away as did Peter, and reconclie it the other way in that David meant that the earth will endure for an era, but will eventually pass away.
yes but then again we mist reconcile the idea to the Psalms and other verses which state that the Earth will endure forever. In this case the heavens and the earth must be symbolic, as are the elements which form the constituent part of the heavens and the earth.
There are many other passages that one needs to consider such as this one:
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. (Hebrews 11:13-16 KJV)
Here the partirachs have seen the promise of a country from afar, not an earthly country but a heavenly one that God has built [not man], no doubt this refers to the New Jerusalem.
07 Jun 16
Originally posted by Rajk999I believe the word used in greek was "kosmos" referring to the world of mankind alienated from god or simply, the wicked society of Noah's day.
Well lets see what Peter said regarding the flood
[b] .. the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
And what he says regarding the day of the Lord:
. the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up
we ...[text shortened]... hardly equate the two especially as Christ also said that the heavens and earth will pass away.
Likewise the wicked society of our day is set for destruction.
And just as the literal earth did not get destroyed in Noah's day (obvious as it is still here),
so the "earth" will not be destroyed in our day.
(Ecclesiastes 1:4) A generation is going, and a generation is coming, But the earth remains forever.
07 Jun 16
Originally posted by roigambeautiful!
I believe the word used in greek was "kosmos" referring to the world of mankind alienated from god or simply, the wicked society of Noah's day.
Likewise the wicked society of our day is set for destruction.
And just as the literal earth did not get destroyed in Noah's day (obvious as it is still here),
so the "earth" will not be destroyed in our day.
...[text shortened]... lesiastes 1:4) A generation is going, and a generation is coming, But the earth remains forever.