The Lord

Originally posted by @alphazero
The issue you have is easily resolved if you know a little about translations.

In the Hebrew there are two words translated into the English as 'Lord' or 'LORD'

Adonai -> Lord
YHWH -> LORD

Now, you will notice a difference between the two words. One is Lord in all caps the other is Lord with just the L capitalised. The translators ...[text shortened]... to translate YHWH from the Hebrew to the Greek Kurios.

Hope that helps a bit.

The New Testament authors through choice of word called Jesus YHWH, Kurios.

Of course this might just be a case of you trying a bit too hard to make a YHWH to Jesus connection.

The same word is used to refer to Jesus in Luke 11:1 as it is to the man in the vineyard in Luke 13.

Luke 11
1It happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples.”

Luke 13
8“And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”

Originally posted by @karoly-aczel
Shouldn't compare yourself to others. Just be a good person

I wasn't.

Originally posted by @karoly-aczel
Shouldn't compare yourself to others. Just be a good person

Good people are not good enough.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Good people are not good enough.

Are you a prophet? If not, please stop telling people what you believe that God wants, or at least mention the fact that you actually do not know the mind of God.

Anyway, so according to you God does not want people because they are good people. I think you are right. God wants people who bow down, who worship and obey. Heaven doesn't want people who use their brains to free-think. Which is ironic.

Originally posted by @apathist
Are you a prophet? If not, please stop telling people what you believe that God wants, or at least mention the fact that you actually do not know the mind of God.

Anyway, so according to you God does not want people because they are good people. I think you are right. God wants people who bow down, who worship and obey. Heaven doesn't want people who use their brains to free-think. Which is ironic.

God wants God people. The difference is in having God and just being "good" in your concept. He wants people who have God in them as their good.

" We have this treasure in earthen vessels that excellency of the power may be of God and not of us."

And Kelly can prophesy which really means to speak for God. Why should he not be a prophet?

You want everyone to spew out the dark sewage of alienation from life that you spew out here?

Put two sentences together consecutively that tell anyone anything positive about what it is to be spiritual. That's what the Spirituality Forum is about?

What do you have?
You're allowed to speak and teach about your belief in spirituality.

Are you nothing more than a little yelping dog on the sideline barking at believers in the Christian Gospel ?

Originally posted by @apathist
Are you a prophet? If not, please stop telling people what you believe that God wants, or at least mention the fact that you actually do not know the mind of God.

Anyway, so according to you God does not want people because they are good people. I think you are right. God wants people who bow down, who worship and obey. Heaven doesn't want people who use their brains to free-think. Which is ironic.

Read the Bible it’s very clear if you don’t care what the scripture says we can just agree to disagree. Since the default position is we are all condemned already until Jesus reaches us.

Originally posted by @apathist

Anyway, so according to you God does not want people because they are good people. I think you are right. God wants people who bow down, who worship and obey. Heaven doesn't want people who use their brains to free-think. Which is ironic.

God wants Christ. He wants Christ in Himself and He wants Christ duplicated in people.

Only Christ meets God's need and satisfies God's heart.
God wants Christ and Christ multiplied.

"Truly, truly I say to you, Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies it abides alone, but if it dies it bears much fruit." (John 12:24)

Christ died that the divine life in Him would be released into many others who receive Him and become His multiplication.

Christ IN YOU is the hope of glory.

"To whom God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the nations, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Col. 1:27)

If all your supposed free thinking could present something better to live for you should of done it by now. You have nothing better, great free thinker.

Heaven doesn't want people who use their brains to free-think. Which is ironic.

Here is the believers' eternal destiny.

"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be CONFORMED to the image of His Son that He might be the FIrstborn among MANY BROTHERS." (Rom. 8:29)

We're going to JESUS.
Free your mind for a moment and grasp that.
We are not going eternally to Heaven we are going to Jesus to be conformed to the same image as Jesus our Elder Brother.

We are not going to Heaven forever as God's eternal purpose. We are being conformed to the image of the Son that He might be the Firstborn among MANY BROTHERS.

But you don't read the Bible but only regurgitate some half cooked sunday school tripe you think is right. I'm not much impressed with all you "free thinking".

Show me anywhere on this Forum your supposed "free-thinkling" showed something better to live for - Apathist.

No wonder you don't care about anything.

Originally posted by @sonship

Anyway, so according to you God does not want people because they are good people. I think you are right. God wants people who bow down, who worship and obey. Heaven doesn't want people who use their brains to free-think. Which is ironic.

God wants Christ. He wants Christ in Himself and He wants Christ duplicated in people.

Only Chri ...[text shortened]... wed something better to live for - [b]Apathist.

No wonder you don't care about anything.[/b]

We're going to JESUS.

We're going to Jesus.
We're going to JES-US.
We're going to JES-US-uh.

YouTube

The saved are going to Jesus. The unsaved are going to the lake of fire. The saved follow their Leader. And the unsaved and unbelieving follow their leader.

The saved share in the glorious destiny of their Leader.
And the unbelieving and Christ rejecting unsaved go to the miserable destiny of their leader Satan.

We the saved are going in life, transformation, resurrection, conformation into the expression of God in man - glory.

" For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things,

in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of thier salvation perfect through sufferings." (Hebrews 2:9)

See? The Firstborn Son of God is leading MANY SONS into the glorious expression of redeemed man saturated with the Divine Life.

Repent of your unbelief in Christ and do join us.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
[b]The New Testament authors through choice of word called Jesus YHWH, Kurios.

Of course this might just be a case of you trying a bit too hard to make a YHWH to Jesus connection.

The same word is used to refer to Jesus in Luke 11:1 as it is to the man in the vineyard in Luke 13.

Luke 11
1It happened that while Jesus was praying in a cer ...[text shortened]... und it and put in fertilizer; 9and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”[/b]

No, this is not me trying too hard. This is accepted among scholarship - you can refer to Kittel or Silva yourself if you wish to do a word study. What I said of the Septuagint is true as well as the New Testament and any other reputable scholar will agree on this - even Jewish scholars.

However, you misunderstand Luke 13:8. Yes, the passage does use Kurios to refer to the owner of the vineyard. But you miss the reference. The owner of the vineyard is Kurios or shall we say God. Almost all parables - I'm hard pressed to think of an exception right now - have God as a character in the story. Thus, a referral to God, who is Kurios, as Kurios should not be at all surprise (except to you apparently 😉 )

This particular parable in Luke 13:6-9 does not have a lot of context, yet the fig tree is the nation of Israel and portrays Israel as not having borne any spiritual produce for some time. The owner's disgust pictures God's evaluation of Israel's current status.

Kurios is used in the Old Testament LXX (Septuagint) to refer to YHWH and likewise the New Testament authors use Kurios to refer to Jesus Christ. The connection is abundantly clear and has been for hundreds and even thousands of years to scholarship and Christians and Jews.

This is straight from Kittel's -

The word kurios, 'lord,' as a name for God in the LXX is a strict translation only in cases where it is used for Adone or Adonai (in the ketib). As a rule, however, it is used as an expository equivalent for the divine name YHWH. It is thus meant to express what the name, or the use of the name, signifies in the original...In the religious sphere, then, kurios is reserved for the true God...and it is used 6156 times

This is from Silva -

In accordance with the usage of the Hel. synagogues, God is freq. called kurios, esp. in the numerous quotations from the OT in which this term stands for Yahweh, reflecting the custom of pronouncing Adonai or Kurios instead of the tetragrammaton in public reading...The term denotes God (e.g. Luke 1:32; 2:9). OT usage is reflected as well in a variety of phrases, such as the hand of the Lord (Luke 1:66; Acts 11:21), the angel of the Lord (Matt. 1:20; 2:13; 28:2; LUke 1:11; 2:9; [etc.])...More significant for NT theology is the use of the title Lord to designate the exalted Jesus and connect him to the LXX use of Kurios, Lord...Foerster concludes, 'Since Kurios expresses all this, then the LXX passages which spoke of Kurios refer to Jesus as well. In him, God acts for he is Kurios just as God is Kurios in the OT.

Edit: For those who don't know, Kittel and Silva are the two widely accepted New Testament Theological Dictionaries used in seminaries. Their scholarship is without question in Christian circles and is recognised and used among Jewish circles as well.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
[b]We're going to JESUS.

We're going to Jesus.
We're going to JES-US.
We're going to JES-US-uh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPqaz9QfK5I[/b]

I may have seen more things like that than you have, maybe. It never stopped me from going on to love and follow Christ.

Did you give up being a human being because of some peculiar behavior of some?

Did you give up wanting to be a Jew because of some kind of peculiar behavior of some Jewish guys ?

Prayer and Oneness at the Lord's table meeting of the church in Rome:

YouTube : =LordsTableInRome

Praise the Lord for the recovery of the ground of the church, the local ground.

Originally posted by @alphazero
No, this is not me trying too hard. This is accepted among scholarship - you can refer to Kittel or Silva yourself if you wish to do a word study. What I said of the Septuagint is true as well as the New Testament and any other reputable scholar will agree on this - even Jewish scholars.

However, you misunderstand Luke 13:8. Yes, the passage does use ...[text shortened]... hout question in Christian circles and is recognised and used among Jewish circles as well. [/b]

No, this is not me trying too hard.

Okay. Then it is those whom you parrot who were "trying a bit too hard to make a YHWH to Jesus connection."

Keep in mind that I am challenging the following assertion:
<<The New Testament authors through choice of word called Jesus YHWH, Kurios. >>

It's a real reach. His disciples called Him "master" because they considered Him to be their master. It's not like it's a word that doesn't mean "master" and they called Him that.

However, you misunderstand Luke 13:8. Yes, the passage does use Kurios to refer to the owner of the vineyard. But you miss the reference. The owner of the vineyard is Kurios or shall we say God. Almost all parables - I'm hard pressed to think of an exception right now - have God as a character in the story. Thus, a referral to God, who is Kurios, as Kurios should not be at all surprise (except to you apparently )

It wasn't lost on me that some like to speculatively assign parable characters in an attempt to derive "meaning" beyond the lesson that Jesus was trying to convey. Sometimes a cigar is a cigar. In the story, the vinyard-keeper calls his master "sir" / "master" / "lord". A vinyard-keeper calling his master "master". Imagine that. In that day and time, do you think it all that unusual for a vinyard-keeper to call his master "master"? They really were trying a bit too hard.

Be that as it may, here's a different example:

The same word is used to refer to Jesus in Luke 11:1 as it is to the "rich man" in Luke 16.
Luke 11
1It happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples.”

Luke 16
3“The manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do, since my master is taking the management away from me? I am not strong enough to dig; I am ashamed to beg.

Hopefully you won't reach so far as to assert that the "rich man" is God or Jesus.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
[b]No, this is not me trying too hard.

Okay. Then it is those whom you parrot who were "trying a bit too hard to make a YHWH to Jesus connection."

Keep in mind that I am challenging the following assertion:
<<The New Testament authors through choice of word called Jesus YHWH, Kurios. >>

It's a real reach. His disciples called Him "master" ...[text shortened]... ed to beg.

Hopefully you won't reach so far as to assert that the "rich man" is God or Jesus.[/b]

No, you just misunderstand the history of the word. The word Kurios through the Septuagint started bearing special significance in the Ancient Mid-East particularly in religion. The Jews used it exclusively to refer to YHWH in religious ceremonies. Jews, even Jews today, would not speak the divine name (the divine tetragrammaton). Hence, instead of speaking YHWH they said Adonai (Hebrew) or Kurios (Greek). No Jew, would have used Kurios post LXX to refer to a pagan deity.

The ancient Greeks used Kurios to refer to their own deities. Yes, the word has meaning such as 'sir', 'master', 'ruler', etc. Yet, the word culturally, regardless of what epistemological origins it has, became to be used, by Jews and Greeks alike, to refer to their deity or deities (for the Greeks).

How the word evolved through the New Testament is interesting. You seem to understand all that I just described but you fail to see how the word came to be understood in its finality, which seems important to me, Silva, Kittel, and a host of other scholars (I've yet see you cite a reputable scholar). I believe, in a sense you are committing some form of the root fallacy.

However, yes, in the Gospels Kurios can refer to others in a generic master, ruler, etc. sense. However, in the Epistles Kurios exclusively refers to Christ as 'Lord'. The New Testament's use of the Old Testament makes this abundantly clear (one example is the use of Psalm 110 in Hebrews).

How can that connection, and this is just one of many, be missed by you? Have you not read the Scriptures? Have you not studied how the Scriptures repeatedly cite Christ as the fulfilment of Messianic promises and directly correlate him as LORD, Kurios?

You are against the vast majority of scholarship and church tradition and confession.
The burden of proof for why this is not the case is on you. Not on me for why it is.

Good luck. 🙂

Out of pure curiosity-do you know Hebrew and/or Greek?

Originally posted by @alphazero
No, you just misunderstand the history of the word. The word Kurios through the Septuagint started bearing special significance in the Ancient Mid-East particularly in religion. The Jews used it exclusively to refer to YHWH in religious ceremonies. Jews, even Jews today, would not speak the divine name (the divine tetragrammaton). Hence, ins ...[text shortened]... on me for why it is.

Good luck. 🙂

Out of pure curiosity-do you know Hebrew and/or Greek?

You are against the vast majority of scholarship and church tradition and confession.
The burden of proof for why this is not the case is on you. Not on me for why it is.

Actually the following was YOUR assertion:
<<<<The New Testament authors through choice of word called Jesus YHWH, Kurios. >>

So the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the NT authors in using the word "Kurios" were in fact calling Jesus "God". By your line of reasoning the NT authors by using the word "Kurios" were also calling the "rich man" in the parable of the unrighteous steward "God". Like I said, "You're trying a bit too hard to make a YHWH to Jesus connection."

"Appeal to authority" is a logical fallacy. Look it up.

Any chance that you'll be able formulate a cogent argument?

Good luck.

Originally posted by @alphazero
The issue you have is easily resolved if you know a little about translations.

In the Hebrew there are two words translated into the English as 'Lord' or 'LORD'

Adonai -> Lord
YHWH -> LORD

Now, you will notice a difference between the two words. One is Lord in all caps the other is Lord with just the L capitalised. The translators ...[text shortened]... to translate YHWH from the Hebrew to the Greek Kurios.

Hope that helps a bit.

It doesn't help cracking the metaphor but thanks anyway