The Moral Argument for God's Existence

@kellyjay said
I'm sure you think so, but again you cannot handle the question about what Jesus
said about His Father, why would you think you grasp the rest of scripture? I go to
the Word prayerfully, as anyone should. It is the Word of God and we are sinners,
we do need God's help which He is willing to give.

You should really just look at those things actually said to you instead ...[text shortened]... ying to figure out why people are saying things
when instead you should just read what was written.

I'm sure you think so, but again you cannot handle the question about what Jesus
said about His Father...

lol. You should really just look at those things actually said instead of trying to figure out motivations. Your are trying to figure out why people aren't saying things when instead you should just read what was written.

Is that enough for you to understand your hypocrisy?

... why would you think you grasp the rest of scripture?

From this am I to assume that you DO believe that you "understand God's
word" and that I don't? You seem to be doing your level best to avoid saying it, but it's been implied in pretty much everyone of your posts - including this one.

@thinkofone said
I'm sure you think so, but again you cannot handle the question about what Jesus
said about His Father...

lol. You should really just look at those things actually said instead of trying to figure out motivations. Your are trying to figure out why people aren't saying things when instead you should just read what was written.

Is that enough for you to unders ...[text shortened]... o avoid saying it, but it's been implied in pretty much everyone of your posts - including this one.

Its simple enough, I'll try to explain it to you again. The natural world, and man
are at odds with God, the natural man cannot please God its impossible. The
Spiritual truths in scripture are only understood by the Spirit of God, without
which you are just walking in the flesh, you being sinner in your natural state
nothing more. You will never grasp the spiritual truths in scripture without the
Spirit of God enlightening you.

Do you have the Spirit of God within you?
Do you even believe in the Spirit of God?

I don't believe you can answer that simple question that has been asked to you
by me, dive, Duke, and I can imagine a few others.

Bottom line, it isn't even just about studying a book so we can beat each other up,
with our Biblical knowledge, but it is to lead us and others to our Creator and
Savior. If all you have is biblical knowledge you are no closer to God than anyone
else. Its as the scripture says, without love we are nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:
2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

@thinkofone said
I'm sure you think so, but again you cannot handle the question about what Jesus
said about His Father...

lol. You should really just look at those things actually said instead of trying to figure out motivations. Your are trying to figure out why people aren't saying things when instead you should just read what was written.

Is that enough for you to unders ...[text shortened]... o avoid saying it, but it's been implied in pretty much everyone of your posts - including this one.

It can only be implied you don't know the scriptures if you claim you don't have
the Spirit of God within you. Do you have the Spirit of God within you? This isn't
about you and I arguing on who knows the Bible the best, it is always about Jesus
Christ in our lives or not. Having a Bible contest on who knows the Word better
isn't winning anything, its our walk with the Lord. Do I think I know the Word of
God yes, do I think you do, doesn't matter. If you belong to Jesus Christ you are
His, not mine, He is your Lord I am not. If you don't know the Lord, well you have
missed the mark of the High calling of God, and that too is between you and
God not you and me.

@kellyjay said
Its simple enough, I'll try to explain it to you again. The natural world, and man
are at odds with God, the natural man cannot please God its impossible. The
Spiritual truths in scripture are only understood by the Spirit of God, without
which you are just walking in the flesh, you being sinner in your natural state
nothing more. You will never grasp the spiritual truth ...[text shortened]... all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

I understand that you believe the gospel preached by those other than Jesus.

I, on the other hand, am here to advocate for the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.

You repeatedly and consistently show that you do not believe the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth. You are deaf and blind to the words that Jesus said "are spirit and are life". Yet you call Him "Lord".

I don't believe you can answer that simple question that has been asked to you
by me, dive, Duke, and I can imagine a few others.

Evidently echoing your words back to you wasn't enough for you to understand your hypocrisy.

You will never grasp the spiritual truths in scripture without the
Spirit of God enlightening you.

Seems we've come full circle.

This sounds like a typical self-serving Christian platitude: They have the "Spirit of God enlightening [them]". As such they "grasp the spiritual truths in scripture". Those who do not "grasp the spiritual truths in scripture" the same as they do therefore do not have the "Spirit of God enlightening [them]". Such a self-serving platitude helps them to reaffirm their own self-righteousness to themselves.

This self-righteousness is what fuels the arrogance regularly displayed by self-serving Christians - albeit arrogance wrapped in false humility.
This self-righteousness is what makes self-serving Christians the modern day equivalent of the Pharisees - white-washed tombs.

@ThinkOfOne

Think about it jaywill.

What makes you think I haven't.
You have to steal from a theistic world view as soon as you speak in terms of real good and real bad.

Let's say that there are two Christians with differing interpretations of the Bible and each of whom believe as follows:
They have God in their life. They are being guided by the Holy Spirit. As such they interpret the Bible correctly. Those who do not interpret the Bible the same as they do therefore do not have "God...in [their] life".

This is not the problem about from where does the ultimate moral OUGHTS of how we should live come. The ultimate moral obligation is owed to whom?

The ultimate answer must be God.
This, I think is true, regardless of varying interpretations of Scripture.

If man is the measure of all things, then which man is?

I think the absolute moral buck in the universe has to stop with God.

As a result each smugly comes away believing that their own interpretation is correct and that the other does not have "God...in [their] life".

The moral argument for the existence of God is not an argument that there are no smug religious people.

As a result each has only succeeded in reaffirming their own self-righteousness to themselves.

The moral argument for the existence of God is not an argument that there are no self-righteous people - religious or otherwise.

It is an argument that man's ultimate moral oblibation - how he ought to be does not end in man himself. It must end in someone eternal, ultimate, Someone above whom there exists no higher righteousness.

What's more, they may BOTH be incorrect.

The moral argument for the existence of God is not an argument that all interpretations of a book are equally right.

Do you still not understand the fallacy?

I think you are not dealing with the argument by bringing up other matters. They may be important issues in their own right. But I don't think they effect the question of where is the ultimate moral obligation of human beings owed.

It must be ultimately owed to a moral governor who is perfect, transcendent, eternal, above whom no higher righteousness is possible - God.

Highest moral allegiance should be owed to something moral rather than something dead, purely material, or temporal. I think it is owed to an ultimate Moral Being.

@thinkofone said
No matter how many red herrings you toss out. No matter how many times you pretend to not know what I've been "on about". No matter how many straw man arguments you make. No matter how many times you "start from the beginning". No matter how many times you talk around it...

If you don't have an objective standard for interpretation of the Bible, then the Bible does not ...[text shortened]... erpretation of the Bible, therefore the Bible does not provide you with an objective moral standard.

That may well be true if you negate the Spirit of God. You said the words of Jesus ring true to you. Do all the words of Jesus ring true to you or only the ones that suit your fancy?

How about these words of Jesus?

John 16:13

However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.

@sonship said
You have to steal from a theistic world view as soon as you speak in terms of real good and real bad.

People absorb and form their compasses from a range of sources in their human environment, including of course absorbing elements of it from various theistic worldviews. The fact that people cite theistic worldviews when they talk of "real good and real bad" is not really much in the way of a moral argument for God's existence, though. Instead, it's just an acknowledgement that religious beliefs influence people's moral views and stances.

@fmf said
People absorb and form their compasses from a range of sources in their human environment, including of course absorbing elements of it from various theistic worldviews. The fact that people cite theistic worldviews when they talk of "real good and real bad" is not really much in the way of a moral argument for God's existence, though. Instead, it's just an acknowledgement that religious beliefs influence people's moral views and stances.

Would you agree that no real good or evil can logically exist within an atheistic framework?

@thinkofone said
I understand that you believe the gospel preached by those other than Jesus.

I, on the other hand, am here to advocate for the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.

You repeatedly and consistently show that you do not believe the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth. You are deaf and blind to the words that Jesus said "are spirit and are life". ...[text shortened]... what makes self-serving Christians the modern day equivalent of the Pharisees - white-washed tombs.

Everyone here knows you have this ministry whose foundation is hidden from
everyone but you. The gospel that has been preached from the time of Christ until
now you reject, and the whole universe had to wait till you were born in order to
hear your version of it. I repeatedly asked you to define what you mean by this so
called gospel of "Jesus while He walked the Earth." you remain silent on defining
what this means making it a hidden gospel and one of private interpretation.

The Jesus I believe is alive and well, it isn't just from the time He walked the earth
but also now as He sits at the right hand of the Father. So if you reject that Jesus
you reject who He is, and have replaced Him with I'm guessing a dead one.

We have to yield our righteousness to Christ, we don't get to say I'm better than
anyone else for we are all sinners in need of a Savior.


Is God in your life NOW? If you cannot acknowledge Him before man you will
not be acknowledged by Jesus.

@kellyjay said
Everyone here knows you have this ministry whose foundation is hidden from
everyone but you. The gospel that has been preached from the time of Christ until
now you reject, and the whole universe had to wait till you were born in order to
hear your version of it. I repeatedly asked you to define what you mean by this so
called gospel of "Jesus while He walked the Earth." ...[text shortened]... d in your life NOW? If you cannot acknowledge Him before man you will
not be acknowledged by Jesus.

Like usual, when faced with points you cannot logically refute, you turn to deceit and mindlessly regurgitating the dogma that you've been taught.

Everyone here knows you have this ministry whose foundation is hidden from
everyone but you. Everyone here knows you have this ministry whose foundation is hidden from
everyone but you. The gospel that has been preached from the time of Christ until
now you reject, and the whole universe had to wait till you were born in order to
hear your version of it. I repeatedly asked you to define what you mean by this so
called gospel of "Jesus while He walked the Earth." you remain silent on defining
what this means making it a hidden gospel and one of private interpretation.

What a long string of deceit wrapped in an ad hom.

In fact, Suzianne has gone so far so as to accuse me of "spamming" the forum because I repeat it so often. Of course one difference between her and you is that she doesn't have poor reading comprehension skills. You can't comprehend what people write, so you blame them for keeping things "hidden".

@sonship said
@ThinkOfOne

Think about it jaywill.

What makes you think I haven't.
You have to steal from a theistic world view as soon as you speak in terms of real good and real bad.

[quote]
Let's say that there are two Christians with differing interpretations of the Bible and each of whom believe as follows:
They have God in their life. They are being guide ...[text shortened]... er than something dead, purely material, or temporal. I think it is owed to an ultimate Moral Being.

I see that you're still taking what others write and addressing pretty much each sentence as if it were written in a vacuum. It's unfortunate that you are unable to read in context.

@thinkofone said
Like usual, when faced with points you cannot logically refute, you turn to deceit and mindlessly regurgitating the dogma that you've been taught.

[b]Everyone here knows you have this ministry whose foundation is hidden from
everyone but you. Everyone here knows you have this ministry whose foundation is hidden from
everyone but you. The gospel that has been preached ...[text shortened]... nsion skills. You can't comprehend what people write, so you blame them for keeping things "hidden".

You still refuse to respond to direct questions about Jesus Christ, nothing about either of us matters as much as He does. If you miss out on Christ none of your doctrines matters.

@dj2becker said
That may well be true if you negate the Spirit of God. You said the words of Jesus ring true to you. Do all the words of Jesus ring true to you or only the ones that suit your fancy?

How about these words of Jesus?

John 16:13

However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.

That may well be true if you negate the Spirit of God.

And yet another red herring from becker. One that he's tossed out before at that.

No matter how many red herrings you toss out. No matter how many times you pretend to not know what I've been "on about". No matter how many straw man arguments you make. No matter how many times you "start from the beginning". No matter how many times you talk around it...

If you don't have an objective standard for interpretation of the Bible, then the Bible does not provide you an objective moral standard.

The Bible is very widely open to interpretation. Over the centuries Christians have been on completely opposite sides as to topics such as slavery, capital punishment, race, women, LGBT, etc. The list goes on and on. People interpret the Bible based on their own subjective standard.

Your interpretation of the Bible is subjective. You have no objective standard for interpretation of the Bible, therefore the Bible does not provide you with an objective moral standard.

@kellyjay said
You still refuse to respond to direct questions about Jesus Christ, nothing about either of us matters as much as He does. If you miss out on Christ none of your doctrines matters.

And more of the same from KJ...

I understand that you believe the gospel preached by those other than Jesus.

I, on the other hand, am here to advocate for the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.

You repeatedly and consistently show that you do not believe the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth. You are deaf and blind to the words that Jesus said "are spirit and are life". Yet you call Him "Lord".

@thinkofone said
That may well be true if you negate the Spirit of God.

And yet another red herring from becker. One that he's tossed out before at that.

No matter how many red herrings you toss out. No matter how many times you pretend to not know what I've been "on about". No matter how many straw man arguments you make. No matter how many times you "start from the beginnin ...[text shortened]... erpretation of the Bible, therefore the Bible does not provide you with an objective moral standard.

Assuming one Christian supposedly believes that the Bible approves of slavery and another doesn’t. Do you think they’re both right or is one of them wrong? I think we both know the one that believes slavery is ok is wrong but you won’t have the balls to admit it. Yet again. The fact that some people may take verses out of context doesn’t mean the Bible isn’t clear on the matter.