18 Dec 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOK then robbie!
alas it is the folly of the rationalist, alway viewing things in terms of imperfect humanity and denying the divine, oh well never mind.
i do not consider myself superior, when did i ever state that? when did i ever say that i do not consider it virtuous to challenge ones mind? or learning was a futile endeavour? i merely stated that by denying ...[text shortened]... some thoughts on the matter, that was all, that there may be some interchange of thought. 😀
How did you found this "accurate knowledge of truth" which you claim that you have? Have you done some pathworking and you found it on your own, or did you followed the instructions of a so called "holy scripture" in order to achieve it?
18 Dec 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieJust a moment! You claimed that an atheist will never able to achieve an accurate knowledge of truth, thus I understood that you implied that solely a theist can.
dude you are missing the point, when did i state that i had the truth? i merely stated that atheists didn't, not that i did? even though between you and me i privately think that i do, but shhhhh.
actually i do think that i existed in form before, i think that i was Jimi Hendrix, because the night that he died, the moon turned a fiery red colou ...[text shortened]... e universe cannot, and i say it again, cannot be formulated without recourse to the divine.😛
Did I misunderstood you?
18 Dec 08
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Originally posted by black beetlei found it by consulting 'holy scripture'.
OK then robbie!
How did you found this "accurate knowledge of truth" which you claim that you have? Have you done some pathworking and you found it on your own, or did you followed the instructions of a so called "holy scripture" in order to achieve it?
18 Dec 08
1 edit
Originally posted by black beetleyes it was a misunderstanding, for there are many theists who also are unable to come to an accurate knowledge of truth, trinitarians for example.
Just a moment! You claimed that an atheist will never able to achieve an accurate knowledge of truth, thus I understood that you implied that solely a theist can.
Did I misunderstood you?
18 Dec 08
"I merely stated that by denying the divine an accurate knowledge of truth is impossible"
This has very clear overtones of you understanding divine truth, while atheists struggle.
My point with the greats wasn't their source material(Michelangelo etc.)... Or what they believed, it was more about them questioning establishment, questioning everything. Which you've certainly implied isn't necessary if you accept this so called divine truth.
You also imply that learning for the sake of learning is a bad thing, that working toward a truth you'll never really get to is a bad thing. With this approach we would never have the computer you type on, or the car you drive (or the bike you ride for that manner).
As for Newton, yes he was a religious man, but he believed in a god of the gaps, and would have made life very difficult for himself in that era if he didn't go to church on sundays.....
18 Dec 08
Originally posted by Mexicoummm, not quite, for as i have stated to beetle, the truth is contained in scripture, and yes it would mean that atheists who deny revelation are unable to attain to divine truth, for the scriptures themselves are and contain the truths, therefore not only would they struggle, it would be impossible.
"I merely stated that by denying the divine an accurate knowledge of truth is impossible"
This has very clear overtones of you understanding divine truth, while atheists struggle.
My point with the greats wasn't their source material(Michelangelo etc.)... Or what they believed, it was more about them questioning establishment, questioning everything. Whic ...[text shortened]... ade life very difficult for himself in that era if he didn't go to church on sundays.....
no no, you misunderstand me, we must question everything! as for whether learning for learnings sake is good or bad, i do not know, i would however venture to state that it may be futile because life without truth, purpose, goals and aspirations which are unreachable may also deemed to be futile, is it not?
18 Dec 08
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Originally posted by black beetlewhat is the accurate knowledge of truth, but the many truths contained in scripture. if you mean what is the nature of this truth, or what it leads to, or what benefits it bestows then we could discuss these things which may broaden an understanding, but i am conscious that i do not want to preach to you.
And, according to this scripture, which is the "accurate knowledge of truth"?
18 Dec 08
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieAhhhh but do you question the authority of the scriptures?
ummm, not quite, for as i have stated to beetle, the truth is contained in scripture, and yes it would mean that atheists who deny revelation are unable to attain to divine truth, for the scriptures themselves are and contain the truths, therefore not only would they struggle, it would be impossible.
no no, you misunderstand me, we must question e ...[text shortened]... h, purpose, goals and aspirations which are unreachable may also deemed to be futile, is it not?
Furthermore have you ever even considered questioning their source? Or the validity or context in which written. How can you know these scriptures are the true ones when they've been fiddled with so much? How do you know one of the translators didn't have an agenda, how can you know one if any of the original writers had an agenda? So many questions so little to answer them except faith.
Faith to me isn't enough. Also I have no desire for a truth, truth is subjective and contextual.... And divine truth will still require faith.
Learning for learning sake is all there is, if I ever stop learning I wish to be put down so as to learn what happens next, although I expect it'll just be rigor mortise and cremation.
The goal is to learn, why go to college? why go to school? (starting to sound like david byrne here)...... For a meaningless piece of paper?
Also if we don't aspire for the unreachable we'll never reach it, it's the whole standing on the shoulders of giants thing. If I try and fail then others will continue the work.
the knowledge of geology that I possess was unreachable for a Geologist 50 years ago.... Is it because I'm smarter? or that i studied harder (ha) No its because they did all the hard work....
18 Dec 08
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Originally posted by Mexicoyes you are quite correct, however, if one takes the present truths that are contained in scripture and applies them in ones life, then they demonstrate the validity of the truths themselves, thus we find that we should display kindness, thus we become more kinder, we learn that all have sinned and make mistakes, thus we become more empathetic and tolerant of others. this is the mirror of scripture that i was discussing with beetle, scripture actually allows us to see the type of persons we are and thus make adjustments, this is not always possible independently and subjectively.
Ahhhh but do you question the authority of the scriptures?
Furthermore have you ever even considered questioning their source? Or the validity or context in which written. How can you know these scriptures are the true ones when they've been fiddled with so much? How do you know one of the translators didn't have an agenda, how can you know one if any of t I'm smarter? or that i studied harder (ha) No its because they did all the hard work....
by the way, you are a geologist, right. i read a wonderful article about the earths ability to filter pollution. if i can remember it states that there are so much air born pollutants that remain in suspension because they are too light in weight, so they remain there, but, what happens is that when the sea churns up salt spray this combines with the pollutants, makes them heavy so that they fall into the ocean, but this is not the end, these combinations of salt and pollutants eventually reach the ocean floor, where huge 'gaps', I'm sorry i do not know the technical term in the earths crust suck them into the molten lava where th pollutants get obliterated and the cleansed water gets forced out in huge oceanic vents, thus there seems to be an amazing filtration system within the ocean itself. it is nothing less than absolutely phenomenal, what say you? is it not amazing?
18 Dec 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAnd which way can we get in touch with the "many truths" contained in the scripture, which they reflect the so called "accurate knowledge of truth" ?
what is the accurate knowledge of truth, but the many truths contained in scripture. if you mean what is the nature of this truth, or what it leads to, or what benefits it bestows then we could discuss these things which may broaden an understanding, but i am conscious that i do not want to preach to you.
Furthermore, this "many truths" complex is like a river, is it like a stream springing from the source of the so called "accurate knowledge of truth" which validates all the other, "many truths" ?
Fianally, the people who they were living before the compilation of this scripture, could they not get the "accurate knowledge of truth" ?
18 Dec 08
Originally posted by black beetlewhat wonderful and artful questions beetle! shabash! as we say in Hindi!
And which way can we get in touch with the "many truths" contained in the scripture, which they reflect the so called "accurate knowledge of truth" ?
Furthermore, this "many truths" complex is like a river, is it like a stream springing from the source of the so called "accurate knowledge of truth" which validates all the other, "many truths" ?
...[text shortened]... ompilation of this scripture, could they not get the "accurate knowledge of truth" ?
we 'get in touch', with the many truths by firstly reading, thinking, meditating (the process of reflection) and finally applying them, this is fundamental, because only in the application can we 'get in touch', or really understand the validity of them.
yes the truths stem from the one source and are able to interpret and validate each other.
no, those who were born prior to the publication of these truths could not attain to an accurate knowledge.
18 Dec 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOh robbie my trusty feer, I had the feeling that the scripture you are talking about it derived from another, more ancient scriptures;
what wonderful and artful questions beetle! shabash! as we say in Hindi!
we 'get in touch', with the many truths by firstly reading, thinking, meditating (the process of reflection) and finally applying them, this is fundamental, because only in the application can we 'get in touch', or really understand the validity of them.
yes the truths st ...[text shortened]... ere born prior to the publication of these truths could not attain to an accurate knowledge.
So, in your opinion, how come such a scripture evolved just out of the blue, and it is full of "many truths" which all of them were unknown to the people before the compilation of the scripture?
What is this scripture afterall, which it shines solely thanks to its Source?