The Need to Differentiate FOUR things

Some false prophets and false teachers Peter said "deny the Master who bought them." (2 Peter 2:1) .

"But there arose also false prophets among the people, as also among you there will be false teachers, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies,

even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

This passage does not mean that they were eternally redeemed. If it meant that then we would have to believe that one eternally redeemed might lose eternal salvation.

But as Christ died for the world - unbeliever as well as believer - He is the Master who bought them. Substitution never took place. But they also, in a sense, were bought by the Master Jesus Christ.

They deny this.
They deny the Master who bought them.
They often deny redemption altogether.

These false teachers can be denying that Jesus is the Christ, not having the Father and not having the Son, denying the Master who bought them.

False brothers / false Christians / teaching they become false teachers.

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27 Oct 19

4 edits

Me:

3.) The failure to differentiate between the kingdom of God and eternal life.

Rajk999 writes:

There is no failure on my part.
- there is the ,millennial reign of Christ during which the saints in Christ are given eternal life and they rule with Christ

Before the start of the millennial kingdom the Bible assures the believers that they HAVE eternal life already.

"And this is the testimony, that God GAVE to us eternal life and this life is in His Son.

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:11-13)

John did not wait until DURING the millennium to tell them they have been GIVEN eternal life.

Since before the millennium they already have the Son they have the life - the eternal life.

John does not say only after the start of the millennial will they have eternal life. God GAVE them eternal life at least two thousand years ago.

Two thousand years ago and today the believers in the Son of God may KNOW that they have the life, the eternal life - because they have the Son of God.

Here is Rajk999's failure to differentiate between the GIFT and the REWARD.

It is probably do to his failure to believe in Jesus, to believe "into the name of the Son of God."

Rajk999 goes on:

- there is the New jerusalem where all people are judged according to their works and are either rewarded with eternal life or destroyed.

It is true that the reward of a foretaste of the full taste of New Jerusalem is enjoyed during the millennium.

However, all who have been REDEEMED by the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ are assured that they have come to the heavenly Jerusalem already.

"For you have come to ... the city of the living God and to the heavenly Jerusalem ... the universal gathering ...; and to the church of the Firstborn, who have been enrolled in the heavens, ... and to Jesus, the Mediator of a new covenant; and to the BLOOD of sprinkling, which speaks something better than that of Abel." (See Hebrews 12:22-24)

I only quoted portions of the passage most pertinent to my point.
Coming to, before the millennial kingdom, the heavenly Jerusalem - "the city of the living God" has been allowed to them because of eternal redemption -

"you have come ... to the blood of sprinkling". That of course is the blood of Jesus. Redemption has qualified them to be "enrolled in the heavens" and assured entrance into New Jerusalem.

Rajk999 is liable to twist my intention to suggest I am teaching disobedience to Christ.

My only immediate point is that the blood of Christ assures the believers that they HAVE COME ... to the heavenly Jerusalem - the city of the living God - New Jerusalem.

Eternal inheritance of the New Jerusalem is a GIFT.

Sinner

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27 Oct 19

@rajk999 said
Trolls are not in the bible so I have no interest in that. You seem to have great interest in things not said by Christ and your entire doctrine is not of Christ.

A fool was defined by Christ and you fit the description perfectly. [i]And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the ...[text shortened]... say is from Christ so what you do have is a perfectly personal relationship with Satan. .. lol... 😀

11.) A troll is one that gets caught in a lie, and just keeps on lying.

hakima

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27 Oct 19

When Christians fight among themselves, lions starve.

Sinner

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28 Oct 19

@hakima said
When Christians fight among themselves, lions starve.

The Christians posting in this forum are not fighting among themselves.

Christians posting in this forum are debating with two individuals in particular that use Christian speak to malign the gospel of Jesus Christ, and falsely teach a warped and perverted doctrine relative to grace and salvation according to the truth of God's Word.

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28 Oct 19

1 edit

@hakima

When Christians fight among themselves, lions starve.

And if from the earth the species of lions become extinct we may have to consider that divided Christians are somewhat responsible for it.

"For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the manifestation of the sons of God.

For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it.

In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (Romans 8:19-21)

divegeester

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28 Oct 19

@hakima said
When Christians fight among themselves, lions starve.

What Christians?

divegeester

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28 Oct 19

@secondson said
Christians posting in this forum are debating with two individuals in particular that use Christian speak to malign the gospel of Jesus Christ, and falsely teach a warped and perverted doctrine relative to grace and salvation according to the truth of God's Word.

Are you going to call me an “ashole” again Joseph?

divegeester

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28 Oct 19

@divegeester said
And FOUR of these are:

1) Eternal suffering.

2) The trinity (the doctrine itself).

3) Accepting the trinity as a pre-requisite to salivation (as published on the statement of beliefs page of the Local Church website).

4) Idolising preachers.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

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28 Oct 19

@divegeester said
Are you going to call me an “ashole” again Joseph?

When I made that post your name didn't come to mind.

I can't definitively say that you are not a real believer because I don't recall you ever denying that salvation is a free gift and not a reward for performance.

I believe you understand that the Bible teaches that eternal life is a gift of God's grace through faith and not of works. That you understand that rewards are for service. That salvation cannot be earned.

At least I hope so, for your sake, in spite of our differences interpretively and doctrinally with regards to other matters.

Rajk999

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28 Oct 19

@secondson said
The Christians posting in this forum are not fighting among themselves.

Christians posting in this forum are debating with two individuals in particular that use Christian speak to malign the gospel of Jesus Christ, and falsely teach a warped and perverted doctrine relative to grace and salvation according to the truth of God's Word.

What you call the Gospel of Jesus Christ apparently has nothing from the teachings of Jesus Christ. That makes your doctrine Satanic.

Rajk999

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28 Oct 19

1 edit

@sonship said
Me:

3.) The failure to differentiate between the kingdom of God and eternal life.

Rajk999 writes:

There is no failure on my part.
- there is the ,millennial reign of Christ during which the saints in Christ are given eternal life and they rule with Christ

Before the start of the millennial kingdom the Bible assures the believers ...[text shortened]... ty of the living God - New Jerusalem.

Eternal inheritance of the New Jerusalem is a GIFT.

Inheritance in the Kingdom of God is CONDITIONAL on righteousness and good works. Christians have a HOPE of eternal life. Failure leads to damnation and NO INHERITANCE AS PAUL STATED SEVERAL TIMES. You are a bible twister, and will lead the gullible fools astray. Paul himself never claimed that he has eternal life already because he said this:

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1 Corinthians 9:27 KJV)

Failure to live according to the commandments leads to damnation. Nobody gets eternal life until the return of Christ at the start of the millennium. They are promised eternal life. Those that are dead await judgment. Those that are alive must be patient and live righteously and avoid a life of sin and evil.

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28 Oct 19

1 edit

Rajk999 writes

Inheritance in the Kingdom of God is CONDITIONAL on righteousness and good works.

If I ask him WHICH of the four points of my OP denies this, I don't think he will answer which one.

They are:

1.) The failure to differentiate between the genuine Christian and the false Christian.

2.) The failure to distinguish between the discipline of the genuine Christians and the eternal salvation of the genuine Christians.

3.) The failure to differentiate between the kingdom of God and eternal life.

4.) The failure to differentiate between discipline of the saved Christian during the millennial kingdom and the eternal perishing of the unbeliever.

Rajk999 -

Christians have a HOPE of eternal life.

That Christians have the hope of eternal life I agree - "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2; 3:7)

But they are told the should KNOW that they have the Son so they have the [eternal] life. (1 John 5:12).

Indeed, Paul, said Christ is in the Christians as their life in the church age.

" the glory of this mystery which is Christ in you the hope of glory " (Col. 1:27)

[b]"When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory." (Col. 3:4)

Having Christ the Son of God in us we have Christ as our life.
He who has the Son has the eternal life.

But we certainly hope for a fuller and consummate enjoyment of what we have.

Rajk999's attempt to argue that having the hope of eternal life means we can only have it in the future opposes the New Testament.

See

1.) The failure to differentiate between the genuine Christian and the false Christian.

Having the Son indwelling one makes him today a genuine Christian.
This is not a matter of condition but of fact.

Rajk999 -

Failure leads to damnation and NO INHERITANCE AS PAUL STATED SEVERAL TIMES.

This exposes again -

3.) The failure to differentiate between the kingdom of God and eternal life.

Yet it also exposes -

2.) The failure to distinguish between the discipline of the genuine Christians and the eternal salvation of the genuine Christians.

It may touch another failure as well.

Rajk999 -

You are a bible twister, and will lead the gullible fools astray. Paul himself never claimed that he has eternal life already because he said this:

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1 Corinthians 9:27 KJV)

This comes under -

4.) The failure to differentiate between discipline of the saved Christian during the millennial kingdom and the eternal perishing of the unbeliever.

Paul was not concerned for being cast away as to his eternal redemption and eternal life. He soberly reflected on his fear of being cast away concerning a reward in the millennial kingdom.

So Rajk999's failure is exposed -

2.) The failure to distinguish between the discipline of the genuine Christians and the eternal salvation of the genuine Christians.

Rajk999 -

Failure to live according to the commandments leads to damnation.

See -

4.) The failure to differentiate between discipline of the saved Christian during the millennial kingdom and the eternal perishing of the unbeliever.

Elaborating on # 4 I wrote -

A Christian saved for eternity may suffer chastisement in the current church age.
But the Christian may ALSO suffer chastisement in the age following the second coming of Christ.

A Christian in the coming age may not only lose the reward in the millennial kingdom but also be positively punished temporarily during that time.

This punishment of a believer during the millennial kingdom is a discipline in the family of God. It does not mean the loss of eternal salvation - loss of eternal life - the loss of the eternal redemption - or the loss of the eternal inheritance.

Rajk999 gets more undeserved attention with -

Nobody gets eternal life until the return of Christ at the start of the millennium.

" I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13) [/quote]

For the hundredth time from many Christians to know NOW that we have eternal life is not Rajk999's "may HOPE that you MAY have eternal life in the future"

The failure on his part is:

2.) The failure to distinguish between the discipline of the genuine Christians and the eternal salvation of the genuine Christians.

Under which I explained further -

Eternal salvation should be distinguished from the divine discipline of those eternally saved. It is one thing for a Christian to be chastized by God in this age. It is another thing for an unbeliever to perish eternally.

A Christian once receiving an eternal redemption will never perish forever. But he may be chastised by God. There are many verses on God chastising His eternally saved believer. It is wrong to apply those verses to salvation.

Then Rajk999 writes -

They are promised eternal life. Those that are dead await judgment. Those that are alive must be patient and live righteously and avoid a life of sin and evil.

The saved for eternity Christian we may say is promised a fuller taste of what he foretastes.

But he HAS eternal life because he HAS the Son of God.

" ... God gave to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God."

To believe into the name of the Son of God is to have the Son.
And to have the Son is to have the life.

And I did give some discussion to verses in the New Testament which speak also of eternal life as appearing as something toward the believer is moving in the thread -

Eternal life as the END of a process

The OP of that thread read as this:

This thread will have from me at least an emphasis on the verses in the New Testament which show eternal life more like something attained at the end of some process.

In other words, there are verses that show "eternal life " as a gift. But there are also many verses which show eternal life as something as a goal at the end of a living.

Many of these I think will come surprisingly from the book on basic Christian doctrine - Paul's letter to the Romans.

https://www.dailychess.com/forum/spirituality/eternal-life-as-the-end-of-a-process.182544