Originally posted by checkbaiterSo if you sin - or "fall short" - you've got "atonement" covered according to your professed beliefs, but if johnnylongwoody sins ["falls short"]... then what?
This was directed at johnnylongwoody, he claims he is a good person. The bible says there no one who is good, all fall short. We all need to receive Jesus Christ as atonement for our sins.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyWell many, many humans are lazy. All humans, at one stage or another. So it's because of the sperm right? God put it in the sperm, yes? 🙂
Only if that Specific Genetic Package clearly shows:[hidden][b]FMF ~o ~o ~o[/hidden][/b]
You are unwilling to address the "cowardice" claim?
Originally posted by FMF"So avoid using the word ‘very’ because it’s lazy. A man is not very tired,
Well many, many humans are lazy. All humans, at one stage or another. So it's because of the sperm right? God put it in the sperm, yes? 🙂
You are unwilling to address the "cowardice" claim?
he is exhausted. Don’t use very sad, use morose. Language was invented
for one reason, boys - to woo women - and, in that endeavor, laziness will
not do. It also won’t do in your essays."
(N.Kleinbaum, Dead Poets Society)
Originally posted by SuzianneQuestion: If one lives a good "Christian" life in terms of following the teachings of Jesus in their everyday existance yet they do not believe in the story of Jesus being the son of God, does not take Christ into his/her heart, does that person go to hell? And likewise, if someone is extremely evil yet decides to take Christ into his/her heart, does he/she get to go to heavan?
And yet fitting*. Yes, there I said it. Unapologetic pride in sin is not acceptable to God. Repent now while there is still time. They say "There are no atheists in foxholes." Don't wait until that moment. Beat the rush.
*Although I would change the words 'eternal fire' in your post to 'the second death', which is the effect of the eternal fire on our otherwise eternal souls.
Originally posted by checkbaiterHave you ever consider the concept of proportionality in punishment? It is a concept that is central to every civilised justice system in the world. It is something you adhere to, I imagine.
Are you saying you have never lied, stolen, never had lust in your heart nor an evil motive? You are always thankful, kind, loving? You have never had been drunk, never an evil thought, no anger, jealousy, or countless other sins?
My, my, you may be special indeed.
You steal a few dollars, you get a few hours community service or short prison sentence.
You murder someone, you go to prison for life, or are executed.
The only entity that has ever existed across the whole of time that apparently does not think this principle should apply is God.
You are raised a Hindu, and lead a pious life as a Hindu, spending your life devoted to saving the poor, the sick, the helpless, denying all personal gain.
But for this 'crime' (assuming you hear of Christianity in your life), you are thrown into a Lake of Fire, along with the most sadistic, paedophile murderer. And what's more, God won't even leave the pious Hindus alone when they are dead.
Go figure that one with the concept of a loving and merciful God.
Then multiply that injustice by an infinite amount for those that think hell is a place of eternal torment. You have to have something very wrong with you to think that it is somehow admirable to worship an entity that plans this for millions of people.
Originally posted by PhrannyYes and yes. Its very simple. Imagine you are in a long line of prisoners going for execution. You have all done very bad things. You get to the front of the line, and you are asked by the 'Judge' (who doesn't really judge because you are all guilty anyway) 'do you believe in me?'. If you say yes, then the Judge pays your fine and lets you off. If you say no, the its the hangman's noose for you.
Question: If one lives a good "Christian" life in terms of following the teachings of Jesus in their everyday existance yet they do not believe in the story of Jesus being the son of God, does not take Christ into his/her heart, does that person go to hell? And likewise, if someone is extremely evil yet decides to take Christ into his/her heart, does he/she get to go to heavan?
Now the hangman's noose isn't unfair, because you see, you deserved it. Justice isn't about you in comparison to everybody else, its you vs your crimes. And its OK for someone else to pay for your crimes if they want to, but thats their decision.
Now don't ask me why you need hanging for your crimes, I have been asking theists this for years and they never answer.
Originally posted by twhiteheadThis makes zero sense to me. In fact, it seems rather immoral to me. So, I can lead a life of total decadence and evil but at the end give my "heart" over to "Christ/God?etc." and get rewarded.
Yes and yes. Its very simple. Imagine you are in a long line of prisoners going for execution. You have all done very bad things. You get to the front of the line, and you are asked by the 'Judge' (who doesn't really judge because you are all guilty anyway) 'do you believe in me?'. If you say yes, then the Judge pays your fine and lets you off. If you say ...[text shortened]... ging for your crimes, I have been asking theists this for years and they never answer.
Originally posted by Rank outsiderI feel compelled to point out that most societies, at least the more humane ones, actually only have one maximum penalty. Yes I know that in ancient times you could be drawn and quartered, or burnt at the stake, or drowned, or various other barbaric ways to die but nowadays most countries do not have proportionality in punishment beyond the death penalty. If you murder 1 person or 500, you get hanged just the same (though if you murder a few thousand, you will probably get away with it, thats the nature of politics).
Have you ever consider the concept of proportionality in punishment? It is a concept that is central to every civilised justice system in the world. It is something you adhere to, I imagine.
Originally posted by PhrannyYes, but I think that many Christians would say that, if that is what you are like, you would not genuinely give your heart over. You would just be paying lip service, which would not work.
This makes zero sense to me. In fact, it seems rather immoral to me. So, I can lead a life of total decadence and evil but at the end give my "heart" over to "Christ/God?etc." and get rewarded.
But genuine deathbed conversion, yes you are going to heaven.
Originally posted by Rank outsiderWell said. Thank you. If you believe in a God that is cruel, it gives you the right to be cruel as long as it is in God's name. And there you have the justification for incredible evil perpetratd in the name of God.
Have you ever consider the concept of proportionality in punishment? It is a concept that is central to every civilised justice system in the world. It is something you adhere to, I imagine.
You steal a few dollars, you get a few hours community service or short prison sentence.
You murder someone, you go to prison for life, or are executed.
...[text shortened]... nk that it is somehow admirable to worship an entity that plans this for millions of people.
Originally posted by twhiteheadMmm....I could debate this, but in the context of this thread, I don't think it negates the point I was making.
I feel compelled to point out that most societies, at least the more humane ones, actually only have one maximum penalty. Yes I know that in ancient times you could be drawn and quartered, or burnt at the stake, or drowned, or various other barbaric ways to die but nowadays most countries do not have proportionality in punishment beyond the death penalty. ...[text shortened]... if you murder a few thousand, you will probably get away with it, thats the nature of politics).
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Man o man! You Atheist's are thick headed!
Let me put it as plainly and as simply as I can.
God is holy. That means He does not even think evil. To try and approach a being like Him is impossible. His brilliance would shine right through you. It would reveal every evil intent, every evil thought, every sin you have ever committed. You would feel like a worm, ashamed, afraid to behold His glory. We would appear like a horrible, despicable creature in our own eyes and in comparison.
God is HOLY, HOLY, HOLY.
Because He is love, and wanted to love man and fellowship with man with such a great passion, He came up with a costly plan.
Since the price for sin is death, requiring bloodshed, He decided to sacrifice His beloved son, to redeem man to Himself.
If they would receive His Son, and repent, He would count the death of His Son as payment for their sin.
The Resurrection was the proof that God accepted the sacrifice.
Since every man, woman and child is born with sin in their blood, their DNA, they need Jesus Christ to approach God who is love.
God created man and has the right to destroy His creation. Nothing immoral about that. This is the sum total of Christianity. A Father wanting to love His children, clean them up, so to speak, and spend eternity with them in love.
Look at the love in these verses...
Eph 1:3-23
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth — in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
NKJV
Originally posted by PhrannyI don't think any of the Christians on this site think it is legitimate to thrown a Hindu into a real-world lake of fire. They would consider that a heinous and adhorrent crime, and that God would punish them for it by throwing them in a lake of fire.
Well said. Thank you. If you believe in a God that is cruel, it gives you the right to be cruel as long as it is in God's name. And there you have the justification for incredible evil perpetratd in the name of God.
It's just that some think it is OK for God to do it.
So we end up in the happy logical loop that God, who intends to throw Hindus in a lake of fire, will throw you in a lake of fire for throwing Hindus in a lake of fire.