Originally posted by twhiteheadHe can lecture as much as he wants to, but with the scandal engulfing the Catholic Church, i think it would be fair to say he has no crediblilty at all. He can quote the Bible and God as much as he wants but when the organisation he is in charge of has systematically broken the law in the most heinous manner for many years, it's a trifle hypocritical. In my eyes anyway.
But surely if the topic is abstention, he should be able to lecture on the subject. Further, if it is a question of what God says on the matter or what the Bible says on the matter, then there too, I do not see why he should be excluded. You don't tell him he is not an authority on the rights and wrongs of murder just because he lacks experience in that matter.
Originally posted by Conrau KI don't think that is fair.
I don't think that is fair. Pope Benedict, unlike any of his other predecessors, has shown a lot more commitment to rectifying this problem. He has personally met victims in Australia and America. He has written to victims in Ireland just recently. It was also amongst his first actions as Pope to remove two high-profile priests accused of sexual abuse.
I didn't expect you would say anything different Conrau.
My first thought that pops into my head is 'Whoopee Doo', i'm underwhelmed by the speed and gravitas of his response (heavy sarcasm intended). The Catholic Church has been engulfed by possibly the biggest scandal in it's history and all the man can do is remove a couple of priests, write a few letters and meet a few people. Wow, what a guy.
Here's what he should have done. He should have found out who was responsible for the atrocities, who covered them up and then personally taken these people to the nearest police station.
And lets not forget what we're talking about here, the Murphy Report used a phrase which i will always remember 'the systematic rape, torture and sexual abuse' of children.
Originally posted by Proper KnobWell I wouldn't expect non-catholics to pay a whole lot of attention to him anyway. But surely Catholics still will as they are just as much responsible for their organisation as he is.
He can lecture as much as he wants to, but with the scandal engulfing the Catholic Church, i think it would be fair to say he has no crediblilty at all. He can quote the Bible and God as much as he wants but when the organisation he is in charge of has systematically broken the law in the most heinous manner for many years, it's a trifle hypocritical. In my eyes anyway.
I also don't really see how the Catholic Church breaking the law and the Pope talking about sex are really connected at all. Certainly not hypocritical.
Originally posted by Proper KnobBut I believe it was quoted to me by another on this forum that the Pope is infallible? Yes I believe that's what they said.
Fair point.
Although looking at the utterly shameful debacle engulfing the Catholic Church at the moment, i don't see how that man or even the entire organisation can lecture anybody on matters of a sexual nature.
Originally posted by galveston75You seem to have missunderstood. My understanding is that the Catholics believe that the Pope can on occasion make statements that are infallible. But they do not believe he is in general infallible.
But I believe it was quoted to me by another on this forum that the Pope is infallible? Yes I believe that's what they said.
Originally posted by twhiteheadWhat does that mean? According to a very active Catholic here on the forums he told me that on a human level he can make mistakes but on some spiritual level that he was never really able to explain, the Pope cannot make mistakes.
You seem to have missunderstood. My understanding is that the Catholics believe that the Pope can on occasion make statements that are infallible. But they do not believe he is in general infallible.
So how does one explain to us that aren't Catholic, how or why the Pope is allowing this to happen and even pushing the blame of this off on others?
If the Pope is in direct contact with God as the Catholics say, then he would have known about this abuse and from the start should have been involved in ending it but has just turned and looked the other way it seems.
After all this has been going on no doubt for centuries in the church and it would seem as the FATHER of the church, the Pope out of love for his people and for God would have come in and cleaned house of this problem and proved to all that he is truly an extension of God as the Catholics say.
So what's up with this man?
Pope Allegedly Knew About Wis. Pedophile PriestUpdated: 11 minutes ago
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Dana Kennedy
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AOL News (March 25) -- Just days after Pope Benedict XVI chastised Irish bishops for covering up clerical sexual abuse in Ireland, new documents suggest he did nothing to discipline a Wisconsin priest he knew had molested scores of deaf boys -- and may have blocked a church trial in the case.
In 1996, when then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was serving in one of the Vatican's most important positions, he received written warnings from several bishops about the Rev. Lawrence Murphy, a priest at St. John's School for the Deaf in St. Francis, Wis., The New York Times reported. The Times obtained the internal church documents from lawyers of five victims of Murphy, who are suing the Archdiocese of Milwaukee.
"This shows a direct line from the victims through the bishops and directly to the man who is now pope," Jeff Anderson, one of the lawyers, told AOL News reporter Lisa Holewa in Milwaukee. "The only difference [from the 1950s] is now we have the documents that are open to secular eyes."
Pier Paolo Cito, AP
Photos of Pope Benedict XVI and the Rev. Lawrence Murphy are displayed at a press conference Thursday at the Vatican. Abuse allegations against Murphy were brought to the pope's attention when he was a cardinal; documents suggests he took no action.The abuse of what may have been up to 200 deaf boys, many who reported cowering in their beds weeping while Murphy, the school's powerful priest, molested others, was first reported in 2006 in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. Murphy worked at the school from 1950 to 1974.
Milwaukee's then-archbishop, Rembert G. Weakland, wrote Ratzinger two letters about Murphy's behavior and got no response, the Times reported. However, thousands of cases were forwarded to Ratzinger from 1981 to 2005, when he headed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which decides whether priests will be defrocked.
Finally, eight months later, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, now the Vatican's secretary of state, told Wisconsin bishops to start a secret canonical trial that might have ended with Murphy's dismissal.
However, Bertone called off the trial after Murphy appealed to Ratzinger directly. He claimed poor health and said the abuse was no longer within the church's statute of limitations.
"I simply want to live out the time that I have left in the dignity of my priesthood," Murphy wrote. "I ask your kind assistance in this matter." The Times reported that there are no responses from Ratzinger in the files.
The recently unearthed correspondence and church files come from attorneys for five men suing the Archdiocese of Milwaukee over the abuse.
As reported in the Journal Sentinel, the men reported similar experiences.
They said Murphy would either call them to his bedroom in the school, or come to them in their dorm beds late at night. He would fondle them and then leave, often going to other boys during the same visit. Sometimes he would molest them while taking their confession.
The boys were often so confused and upset that they would cover their heads with blankets, hold themselves close and cry.
"Murphy was so powerful and it was so hard," said one of the plaintiffs, who said he was molested when he was in seventh grade and said he saw more than a dozen other boys molested. "You couldn't get out. It was like a prison. I felt so confused. Here I had Father Murphy touching me. I would be like, 'God, what's right?' "
This latest black eye for the Vatican comes one day after the pope accepted the resignation of Irish Bishop John Magee for his part in covering up clerical sexual abuse in Ireland. Just days before, the pope wrote a pastoral letter to Irish Catholics, blaming clergy there for the massive scandals.
Pope Benedict has not yet commented on reports that he went easy on a priest in Germany who he knew had sexually abused children.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadOther then prayer, nope. But I don't claim to be God on earth or whatever they call him and I certianly don't claim to be a FATHER of my people who is infallable spiritually. The term "Father" in a spiritual sense is used only for God. They don't get that.... Matt 23:9. But their doctrines somehow negate that scripture.
So funny. I bet you claim to be in direct contact with God too. Most Christians do. I didn't see you doing anything about it.
And what would you have me do my friend?
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Originally posted by galveston75The Vatican released a statement some days ago explaining this case. A copy of its press report can be found here:
Pope Allegedly Knew About Wis. Pedophile PriestUpdated: 11 minutes ago
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Dana Kennedy
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AOL News (March 25) -- Just days after Pope Benedict XVI chastised Irish bishops for covering up clerical sexual abuse in Ireland, new documents suggest he did nothing to discipline a Wisconsin priest he knew had molested sc ...[text shortened]... e knew had sexually abused children.
Filed under: Nation, World, Crime
http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2010/03/times-warned-vatican-failed.html
The Vatican was made aware of allegations in the early 70s (mind you, Cardinal Ratzinger was not yet appointed to the Congregation for the Faith but was still Archbishop of Munich.) These allegations were later retracted and no criminal proceedings ensued. This was more severely a failure of police. No further allegations were forwarded to the Vatican until 20 years later. In this case, the allegations only involved solicitation in the confessional. It does not appear that the Vatican was ever fully informed of the extent of this priest's crimes (and canonically, bishops were not obliged to report these until 2001.) The priest died soon after.
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Originally posted by galveston75What does that mean? According to a very active Catholic here on the forums he told me that on a human level he can make mistakes but on some spiritual level that he was never really able to explain, the Pope cannot make mistakes.
What does that mean? According to a very active Catholic here on the forums he told me that on a human level he can make mistakes but on some spiritual level that he was never really able to explain, the Pope cannot make mistakes.
So how does one explain to us that aren't Catholic, how or why the Pope is allowing this to happen and even pushing the bla ...[text shortened]... all that he is truly an extension of God as the Catholics say.
So what's up with this man?
I can only assume that I am this 'very active Catholic on the forums'. As I understand, I am the only Catholic on the forums at the moment. If so, then you have completely misinterpreted me. It is true that the Pope is not impeccable. He is capable of error and sin. Catholics only believe that the Pope is infallible when he speaks using the authority of St Peter to bind the minds and consciences of all Christians. This is a power rarely employed and can only be used when defining faith and morals.
If the Pope is in direct contact with God as the Catholics say, then he would have known about this abuse and from the start should have been involved in ending it but has just turned and looked the other way it seems.
But Catholics do not say that the Pope is in contact with God. Catholics believe only that when he defines a doctrine as something to be believed by all Catholics, then it is infallible. Very few Popes exercise such a power. The last was in 1950 and before then 1854. Neither Pope John Paul II nor Pope Benedict XVI have used the charism of infallibility.
After all this has been going on no doubt for centuries in the church and it would seem as the FATHER of the church, the Pope out of love for his people and for God would have come in and cleaned house of this problem and proved to all that he is truly an extension of God as the Catholics say.
Well, I personally do not think that any solution is possible; all the Church can do is aim to be transparent about allegations of abuse. Abuse will always happen. Recently in my country, Australia, there have been revelations that an actor frequently harassed a young girl on set and that the producers kept this quiet. There have been revelations that many children in an orphanage, co-run by the Salvation Army and the state, had been abused since the 50s. There have been investigations into a cult in which their leader has been accused of molesting numerous young girls. The problem of abuse is not unique to the Catholic Church.