The proof is in the pudding?

Originally posted by bbarr
But I think that your worldview is denigrating to humanity, and it runs contrary to the vast majority of my philosophical views. Since I don't think I stand in need of redemption or salvation, why ought I pursue your lifestyle and commitments, even as an experiment?

The thread was about the issue of proof really. What you are saying is that maybe you accept that it doesn't make sense to ask for proof first before giving it a try because Christianity clearly lays out it's terms for how 'proof' or knowing can happen (eg -"taste and you will see"😉. Until someone reaches the point where they feel in need of redemption or are dissatified with life as it stands then there is in a sense no motivation to pursue it. Its only when we realise that the goodness in us that we attribute to ourselves (pride) actually belongs to God and that if at any moment God were to withdraw his grace from us any of us could become a psychopath that we start to see a need for God. In short, you need God already it's just you don't know it (unless you think that the goodness within was created by you and you only?)

Originally posted by knightmeister
The thread was about the issue of proof really. What you are saying is that maybe you accept that it doesn't make sense to ask for proof first before giving it a try because Christianity clearly lays out it's terms for how 'proof' or knowing can happen (eg -"taste and you will see"😉. Until someone reaches the point where they feel in need of redemption ...[text shortened]... n't know it (unless you think that the goodness within was created by you and you only?)

Whether someone needs god or not, doesn't mean they need to become a christian. When, if ever, you can see that there are many paths available for people, only then will you be on the path to enlightenment. Be careful, you might be seeking the wrong reward.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Christianity says that it is possible to know the truth except it's not in the way that many Atheists would like. The Atheist position seems to be " prove this to me and I will have faith in it" whereas Christ says "seek and you will find, knock and the door will be open to you , let me make my home in you and you will know the truth" So what is to s n 'knows' his wife (ie intimacy) , not in the sense of knowing that 23x5= 115)

I think you're missing the point. The question is why should I try? I have no need for salvation, since I'm perfectly comfortable with mortality and don't believe in the notion of sin, nor the presence of the supernatural. It's not about the fact that I don't believe in god and thus I don't want to try, its that I see no reason to try whatsoever. What astounds me is that as a natural human being you have a need for something which you call god.

Also, I was brought up a christian till the age of about 16, when I started to realise it gave me nothing and nor did I want anything from it.

Originally posted by damage79
What is the risk?

Potential Risks or becoming a Christian:
1. The muslims are right and I get doubly punished.
2. I look rather stupid to myself.
3. I miss out on lifes good points while trying to pursue a non-existant truth.
4. I convince myself that God will forgive me all my sins and thus no longer need to take responsibility for my actions.
5. I convince myself that there are more important things than this life and thus attach less meaning to this life.
6. I spoil the science education system by trying to push ID because evolution doesnt sit well with Chritianity and ID tries to make evolution look wrong.
7. I start associating with Christians - some of the most dishonest people I know.

Want more?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Potential Risks or becoming a Christian:
1. The muslims are right and I get doubly punished.
2. I look rather stupid to myself.
3. I miss out on lifes good points while trying to pursue a non-existant truth.
4. I convince myself that God will forgive me all my sins and thus no longer need to take responsibility for my actions.
5. I convince myself th ...[text shortened]... 7. I start associating with Christians - some of the most dishonest people I know.

Want more?

1. Actually, Allah is more merciful towards Christians than atheists.
2. Only if you have low self-esteem.
3. "Non-existent truth"? Can you prove it?
4. Considering Christians have eternal hell-fire waiting for them if they don't act responsibly - I'd say we're more likely to take responsibility for our actions. We don't think we've "gotten away with it" just because the law doesn't get us.
5. So? Some of the greatest people in history believed there was more to life than just being alive.
6. Nonsense. Evolution is perfectly consistent with Christianity (as long as the scientists stick to the science).
7. So? Some of the most dishonest, abusive and dogmatic people I've met on RHP are deists or atheists.

Half of your points attack strawmen; the other half aren't even complete arguments.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
6. Nonsense. Evolution is perfectly consistent with Christianity (as long as the scientists stick to the science).

Only if the OT version of things is discounted and creationism ignored. His point was about the irreconcilable nature of ID and evolution,

Originally posted by Nordlys
You mean we are supposed to have sex with God?

Probably that's where you went wrong, Nordlys ...... 🙂

Originally posted by bbarr

I'm unfamiliar with Pascal's calculations. It sounds like Pascal is claiming we have decisive prudential reasons to believe, or that the only smart bet is to believe. Is that right? I don't have me the sort of book learnin' that you rocket scientist people have, but I know gambling. What are the odds on this wager?

So, you know how when you go to the track, if you bet on the underdog, you'll get maybe 20-1 or 25-1?

Well, it turns out that God is laying infinite odds! That would be like going to the window after the race to collect your winnings, and never leaving because they keep bringing you more and more cash.

The downside is that at the track, you only have to risk $2.
In this game, the stakes, and thus the risk of ruin, are much higher. Accepting the wager might be the last rational decision you'll ever make.

Originally posted by Starrman
I think you're missing the point. The question is why should I try? I have no need for salvation, since I'm perfectly comfortable with mortality and don't believe in the notion of sin, nor the presence of the supernatural. It's not about the fact that I don't believe in god and thus I don't want to try, its that I see no reason to try whatsoever. What a ...[text shortened]... bout 16, when I started to realise it gave me nothing and nor did I want anything from it.

I was lucky enough to not be brought up a Christian so I have avoided having had it rammed down my throat. If you don't see the need then it's obviously not your time. Another way of looking at it is whether one searches for the truth or not and what they think it might look like. I guess I'm mainly targetting the "I want proof" brigade rather than the "I'm not bothered anyhow" brigade.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
1. Actually, Allah is more merciful towards Christians than atheists.
2. Only if you have low self-esteem.
3. "Non-existent truth"? Can you prove it?
4. Considering Christians have eternal hell-fire waiting for them if they don't act responsibly - I'd say we're more likely to take responsibility for our actions. We don't think we've "gotten away wi ...[text shortened]...
Half of your points attack strawmen; the other half aren't even complete arguments.

He said "potential risks", not "facts". 🙄

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
So, you know how when you go to the track, if you bet on the underdog, you'll get maybe 20-1 or 25-1?

Well, it turns out that God is laying infinite odds! That would be like going to the window after the race to collect your winnings, and never leaving because they keep bringing you more and more cash.

The downside is that at the trac ...[text shortened]... n, are much higher. Accepting the wager might be the last rational decision you'll ever make.

Gotcha, so it's like when that small but fiesty rooster down at the pits won me a case of Ranier, except with God I'd get like the whole Ranier factory? I was trying to explain this to a buddy of mine and he told me that if I believed in Allah I'd get a bunch of virgins, but if I believed in God that I wouldn't get those virgins and nothing else neither. So, how can I get the virgins and the Ranier factory? Who do I have to believe in to get that? 'Cause you know, in my experience, virgins are only fun if you have a bunch of beer.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Its only when we realise that the goodness in us that we attribute to ourselves (pride) actually belongs to God and that if at any moment God were to withdraw his grace from us any of us could become a psychopath that we start to see a need for God. In short, you need God already it's just you don't know it (unless you think that the goodness within was created by you and you only?)

And this is one facet of your worldview that I find denigrating to humanity. You think all that is noble and kind in humans is really attributable to God or God-in-us, but when we are malicious or callous this is attributable to our nature or the absence of God-in-us. The implication, of course, is that everyone I love is, by their very nature, essentially egoistic and a potential "psychopath". I find that terribly offensive, not to mention completely stupid.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I was lucky enough to not be brought up a Christian so I have avoided having had it rammed down my throat. If you don't see the need then it's obviously not your time. Another way of looking at it is whether one searches for the truth or not and what they think it might look like. I guess I'm mainly targetting the "I want proof" brigade rather than the "I'm not bothered anyhow" brigade.

And we all hope that some day you'll become psychologically healthy enough to jettison the crutch of religious belief. I guess it's just not yet your time...

Originally posted by bbarr
So, how can I get the virgins and the Ranier factory? Who do I have to believe in to get that?

A corollary of Pascal's calculations is that you merely need to posit the possible existence of a God who will reward you thus, if that would be your ultimate reward, and then believe in him. It turns out that that play always maximizes your expected reward. Elegant, huh?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
A corollary of Pascal's calculations is that you merely need to posit the possible existence of a God who will reward you thus, if that would be your ultimate reward, and then believe in him. It turns out that that play always maximizes your expected reward. Elegant, huh?

But then KM's God is clearly not the best choice, because his God will punish you for failing. Poor KM. He should has chosen a better God. Just like I tell my buddies down at the pits, cocks that can rake are good, but cocks that can rend with their beaks are better. KM's God is analogous to a defective cock.