The soup, the lightning bolt and the life.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You try to present yourself as being wise, but I see you like the Emperor
with no clothes.

I take it this means you disagree with me? If you think I am wise, fine. If you don't, fine. I do not have a 'religion' to propagate so persuading you of anything is not on my agenda.

Originally posted by FMF
Spirituality to my way of thinking is all about our discovery that each of us is in possession of authority, autonomy and extraordinary unique potential in terms of our each and every individual spirit. You have used your authority to make a decision to submit to another "authority". Fine. I wish well on that spiritual path. I do not subscribe to the authority that you have chosen to subscribe to.

Proverbs 14:12 - There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

I realise you don't believe this, but it came to mind.

The world is full of ways to believe and paths to follow. Some say they all lead to the same place. Well, that's just another way to believe isn't it? One can say that belief in Jesus is just another way to the same end. But that's not what Jesus says. Jesus said that He is the way, and that there is no other way. The two concepts are mutually exclusive. The one is true and the other is false.

There's no room for error here. The set up is established. Error is death. Truth is life. This is what the scriptures teach. No fuzzy nebulous relativism. Just hard truth.

I know you don't want to hear this, but I understand why you think the way you do. You say, "Spirituality to my way of thinking is all about our discovery that each of us is in possession of authority, autonomy and extraordinary unique potential in terms of our each and every individual spirit." There is truth in that, but the full realisation of our potential is to be found in a person. That person is God, and in the one that was manifested before our eyes in the person of God's own Son who is the exact representation of the Father.

This truth is taught nowhere else but the scriptures.

Originally posted by josephw
There's no room for error here. The set up is established. Error is death. Truth is life. This is what the scriptures teach. No fuzzy nebulous relativism. Just hard truth.

...the full realisation of our potential is to be found in a person. That person is God, and in the one that was manifested before our eyes in the person of God's own Son who is the exact representation of the Father. This truth is taught nowhere else but the scriptures.

Just making assertions is not going to work, josephw. [etc. etc.]

Originally posted by FMF
You are entitled to believe what you want. Do you sincerely think I am not "honest"? That is Dasa's 'catchphrase'. Funny that. It is - once again - presumptuous of you to assert that I will "realise [I am] completely helpless". This kind of approach you are taking with me is of a kind that is pointedly inferior to many of the approaches I have exposed myself to and patiently listened to and considered over the last four decades.

No, I do not think you are dishonest. I am convinced you are absolutely sincere.

But I think you are in error in how you perceive the evidence of this life.

Which is why we are doing this.

Originally posted by josephw
No, I do not think you are dishonest. I am convinced you are absolutely sincere.

Well you said that if I take an "honest" look at my condition I will be convinced and thus assume the same belief as you. So make your mind up: you either think I have not been "honest" when I've looked at my condition, up till now, or you "do not think [I am] dishonest". Which is to be?

Originally posted by FMF
I take it this means you disagree with me? If you think I am wise, fine. If you don't, fine. I do not have a 'religion' to propagate so persuading you of anything is not on my agenda.

Okay, let's just say you are a muslim theists, but not an Islamic zealot
or addicted to Islam.

Originally posted by josephw
But I think you are in error in how you perceive the evidence of this life.

I understand your point of view. Tell me; have you ever converted someone by talking to them the way you are talking to me here? Take for example, like you said earlier: "If I tell you I believe in something, and I share that with you, why do you accuse me of telling you lies [when you say you don't believe what I say]". Has this kind of 'argumentation' actually ever worked for you on anybody? Were you yourself converted by someone talking to you in that way?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Okay, let's just say you are a muslim theists, but not an Islamic zealot
or addicted to Islam.

I am not a Muslim.

Originally posted by FMF
I am not a Muslim.

Do you feel it is possible for you to be converted to Christianity?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Do you feel it is possible for you to be converted to Christianity?

I doubt it. I spent 28 years as a Christian and I am now a post-Christian.

Originally posted by FMF
Well you said that if I take an "honest" look at my condition I will be convinced and thus assume the same belief as you. So make your mind up: you either think I have not been "honest" when I've looked at my condition, up till now, or you "do not think [I am] dishonest". Which is to be?

I believe you are honest, but in error.

In the legal system one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. In the world of the scriptures Jesus is said to have been killed, but then was raised from the dead by the power of God. You say you are unconvinced that this is true.

But you have no proof that the resurrection didn't happen. But you do have proof that it did. It is presumptuous to assume the scriptures are lying unless you can prove otherwise.

The error in you thinking is that you think you have not seen anything to convince you that the scriptures are true. You have the scriptures. You cannot say you haven't seen anything to convince you.

Seems a conundrum? It's not. It's pure reason and logic.

Originally posted by josephw
I believe you are honest, but in error.

So when you said if I take an "honest" look at my condition I will be convinced, what did the word "honest" mean.

If you do believe I am honest does that mean you believe I am already taking an honest look at myself?

You're not being clear. I am interested because Dasa, a religionist like you, equates disagreement with "dishonesty". You seemed to have done the same, but now appear to be backing away.

Originally posted by josephw
The error in you thinking is that you think you have not seen anything to convince you that the scriptures are true. You have the scriptures. You cannot say you haven't seen anything to convince you.

I have seen the scriptures. They haven't convinced me. There is no "error".

Originally posted by FMF
I doubt it. I spent 28 years as a Christian and I am now a post-Christian.

What do you think of the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo
as evidence for the resurrection of the Christ since there is an empty
tomb in Jerusalem reported to be the tomb where Jesus was placed
after His death on the cross.

http://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm

Originally posted by josephw
But you have no proof that the resurrection didn't happen. But you do have proof that it did. It is presumptuous to assume the scriptures are lying unless you can prove otherwise.

I don't have to prove anything. I just need to be convinced. And I have not been. I do not believe the "God's instructions" that you propagate are "God's instructions" and I do not believe you have anything valid to tell me about a 'next life'. But I do wish you well as you use the scriptures of your choice to add meaning to your life.