25 Jul 14
2 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterThat's the way I understand it. I believe they were first baptized with the Holy Spirit, then on Pentacost the entire Church of believers were filled with the Power of the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues and given special gifts.
The disciples were first, then others.
25 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipYou left out a word.
Now we are going to discuss, the meaning of [b]John 7:39. The KJV supplies the word given so that the passage reads -
...[text shortened]... ed." (John 7:37-39) [/b] [/quote]
John 7:39King James Version (KJV)
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
So when was the Spirit "yet"? When was the Spirit ?[/b]
Kelly
25 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipI think you are making a big deal out of a translation. Every translationThe word "given" is supplied in English to complete the thought. Obviously something has to be "given" before it can be "received".
I agree totally that what has not been "given" cannot be received.
But also what is not yet or does not exist yet also cannot be given or received.
I think either with the given supplied ...[text shortened]... the Spirit could be given. But above all, enjoy the Spirit that has now BEEN given. Amen.
I've looked at all have the word 'given' in them I don't care how old the
translation. So why bother?
The thing that matters, is that God has given us the ability to recieve
His Holy Spirit, because Jesus did what He did. That is the real thing
to be grasped here.
Kelly
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25 Jul 14
7 edits
Originally posted by KellyJay
You left out a word.
Kelly
Every translation I've looked at all have the word 'given' in them I don't care how old the translation. So why bother?
Translators to English have the right to supply the word given if they think that is how the Greek should read. But it is a supplied word. And here are some English translations which make it unlikely that given can be insisted upon as the only correct rendering.
John 7:39 -
Darby Bible Translation
But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive; for [the] Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
International Standard Version
Now he said this about the Spirit, whom those who were believing in him were to receive, because the Spirit was not yet present and Jesus had not yet been glorified.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus said this about the Spirit, whom his believers would receive. The Spirit was not yet evident, as it would be after Jesus had been glorified.
Weymouth New Testament
He referred to the Spirit which those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not bestowed as yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Young's Literal Translation
and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Recovery Version
But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."
Emphasized Bible
Now |this| spake he concerning the Spirit which they who believed on him were about to receive; for |not yet| was there Spirit, because ||Jesus|| |not yet| was glorified!
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25 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJay
The thing that matters, is that God has given us the ability to recieve
His Holy Spirit, because Jesus did what He did. That is the real thing
to be grasped here.
Kelly
I agree completely. But perhaps I see more in the signficance of what He did. His incarnation, human living, death and resurrection were all steps to prepare the human part to be compounded into the eternal Spirit.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
He said this about the Spirit. Those who believed in Jesus were going to receive the Spirit, for the Spirit had not yet been received because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Darby Bible Translation
But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive; for [the] Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Jesus breathed this Spirit right out of Himself (symbolically probably) into the disciples there. John records this, I believe, to underscore the fulfillment of the Lord's promise that in that day (the day of His resurrection) they would know that He was in the Father and they in Him and He in them.
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:20)
In the evening of that resurrection day He entered into the disciples when He breathed into them saying "Receive the Holy Spirit" .
Just before He breathed the life giving Spirit into them He said - "Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." (20:21b). He sent them WITH Himself imparted INTO them. They were not without Him indwelling them now. He had imparted Himself to them as life and everything. He entered into His disciples in His resurrection state as "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) .
The Comfort was now. The Peace within was now. The Spirit was "yet" and "yet given". And they knew that they were mingled with the Father and the Son as His promise in 14:20 had said. He in the Father, and they in Him, and He in them.
That is a real mingling of God and man.
25 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipThe problem with you is that you don't know what it means.The thing that matters, is that God has given us the ability to recieve
His Holy Spirit, because Jesus did what He did. That is the real thing
to be grasped here.
Kelly
I agree completely. But perhaps I see more in the signficance of what He did. His incarnation, human living, death and resurrection were all steps to prepare the hum ...[text shortened]... . He in the Father, and they in Him, and He in them.
That is a real mingling of God and man.
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26 Jul 14
1 edit
The Spirit that was breathed into the disciples in chapter 20 was the fulfillment of many passages in John.
1.) This was the Spirit expected to be received in John 7:39. He was not yet by that time.
2.) This is the Spirit promised by Christ in 14:16-17,26; 15:26; and 16:7-8,13. The Lord said "Peace be to you" twice in chapter 20 and breathed this "Another Comforter" into them for the giving of that peace and comfort within.
3.) This promise however differs from the one in Acts 2:1-4 which was the fulfillment of the Father's promise in Luke 24:49. In John He comes as a breath of life for life impartation. In Acts He comes as a rushing and violent wind to empower the disciples for the work (Acts 1:8).
4.) This impartation was also to fulfill the promise that the one grain of wheat would fall into the ground and die and bring forth many grains (John 12:24). Jesus Christ in resurrection released that divine life into His followers.
5.) It is chapter 20 that indicates "He [the Comforter] abides with you and shall be in you." (John 14:17) . At this juncture in the evening of His resurrection the Godman who was with them suddenly became the Comforter that was now abiding in them. He made the transfer as He had promised.
He came TO them in the very living Spirit He breathed into them. He did not leave them orphans but promised to come to them.
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.
I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (John 14:16-18)
It is here in chapter 20 that the "I" of the One they KNEW and Who abided with them became the one that the world cannot behold and does not know, Who entered INTO the disciples, not leaving them as orphans. He was Jesus Himself in His pneumatic form -
"I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you."
When He said "Receive the Holy Spirit" His intimate action of breathing into them signified that He Himself was entering into them and He Himself was coming to them.
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
Cont. latter
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26 Jul 14
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
The explanation is that Jesus had already ascended to the Father and returned with the Holy Spirit to leave with the disciples.
The explanation is that Jesus had already ascended to the Father and returned with the Holy Spirit to leave with the disciples.
That is correct. He had privately ascended and come back in the evening.
And he did not want Mary to touch Him for this reason. The Father had to be the first to enjoy His resurrection. On this point of a brief ascension you agree with Witness Lee.
I. APPEARING TO HIS SEEKER
As life in resurrection, the Lord firstly appeared to His seeker (20:14-18). This was His first appearing after His resurrection. Mary, however, could only see Him; she could not touch Him because the freshness of His resurrection was reserved for the Father. In His appearing to Mary, the Lord unfolded the revelation of the issue of His resurrection—the “brothers” and the “Father” (20:17). This is the revelation of the brotherhood and the Fatherhood. In His resurrection, all His disciples have become His brothers, and His Father has become their Father.
II. ASCENDING TO THE FATHER
In 20:17 the Lord Jesus said to Mary, “Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.” After He appeared in resurrection to His seeker, He secretly ascended to the Father on the day of resurrection. Many Christians have never seen this matter of the Lord’s secret ascension. Before the Lord ascended publicly in the sight of the disciples forty days later (Acts 1:9-11), He ascended secretly early in the morning of the day of His resurrection to the Father for the Father’s enjoyment and satisfaction.
The Lord offered Himself to the Father as “a sheaf of the firstfruits of the harvest” for the “wave offering” (Lev. 23:10-11, 15). According to the Old Testament, the harvest was taken to the barn, but the firstfruits were always brought into the temple as a wave offering (Exo. 23:19; Lev. 23:10-11). As we have seen, the wave offering, which was offered with a back-and-forth motion, typifies resurrection, and the heave offering, which was offered with an up-and-down motion, typifies ascension. The firstfruit, which was brought into the temple and offered in the presence of God as a wave offering, typifies Christ coming into the presence of God for His satisfaction early on the morning of the day of His resurrection.
From The Life Study of John by Witness Lee
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=15FB
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27 Jul 14
So how are we doing on this ? Some of you dear ones still not persuaded ?
Now the Spirit of God was eternal. As long as God, so long the Spirit of God. " God IS Spirit " (John 4:24, my emphasis)
Here is a question I put to some of you.
In the eternal Spirit there was always eternal life.
But, was the eternal Spirit always the life giving Spirit?
Let's understand now. I said there was eternal divine life in the Spirit from eternity. But was the eternal Spirit always the "life GIVING ... Spirit"?
Is it not the case that God could not GIVE life to man until the Son of God came, lived, died, and resurrected? Is it not the case that divine life could only be GIVEN to fallen mankind after Jesus had accomplished His redemptive act and victorious resurrection?
Here is the verse again - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) .
There was always LIFE in Christ. And He came to give life and that so abundantly (John 10:10).
Was He able to GIVE divine and eternal life to man before His incarnation, life, death, and resurrection?
Is it not the case that the One in Whom life was, could not GIVE that life to us until "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit"?
All the while we hold firm that the Third of the Father - Son - Spirit eternally co-exist.
28 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonship
So how are we doing on this ? Some of you dear ones still not persuaded ?
Now the Spirit of God was eternal. As long as God, so long the Spirit of God. [b]" God IS Spirit " (John 4:24, my emphasis)
Here is a question I put to some of you.
In the eternal Spirit there was always eternal life.
But, was the eternal Spirit always the life giv ...[text shortened]...
All the while we hold firm that the Third of the Father - Son - Spirit eternally co-exist.
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
(Luke 1:35)
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
(Matthew 1:18)
THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS YET.
28 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipEvery translation has words supplied! You can translate by word for word,Every translation I've looked at all have the word 'given' in them I don't care how old the translation. So why bother?
Translators to English have the right to supply the word given if they think that is how the Greek should read. But it is a supplied word. And here are some English translations which make it unlikely that [b] [i ...[text shortened]... [b] for |not yet| was there Spirit, because ||Jesus|| |not yet| was glorified!
[/quote][/b]
or idea, or I'm sure several other ways. Getting a thought across isn't
always as nice and neat as we like.
Kelly
28 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayThat is why a good translator should know both languages well. Otherwise, you may get the wrong meaning. Sometimes, we can even misunderstand someone else's meaning when we communicate in the same native language that we think we know well, like English.
Every translation has words supplied! You can translate by word for word,
or idea, or I'm sure several other ways. Getting a thought across isn't
always as nice and neat as we like.
Kelly
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28 Jul 14
4 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
(Luke 1:35)
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
(Matthew 1:18)
THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS YET.
Your references do prove that the term "Holy Spirit" was used in connection with the birth of the God-man Jesus.
But my question was about the Holy Spirit giving life before the life, death, resurrection of this Jesus.
We have thought about this much more carefully then you assume it has been contemplated.
For example - The Lord Jesus said that the greatest of all men born of women by then, was John the Baptist, but the least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than John the Baptist.
"Truly I say to you, Among those born of women there has not arisen one greater than John the Baptist, yet he who is least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he." (Matt. 11:11)
Of all human beings born from women, John the Baptist was by that time the greatest. But the least person indwelt with by the Holy Spirit after the resurrection of Christ is greater than John the Baptist. For sure John the Baptist was anointed with the Spirit of God.
I submit that there is something closer to Christ in those who have received the Holy Spirit in the church age, than there was for this greatest one empowered by the Spirit of God - John the Baptist.
The Great One in the universe is Jesus Christ the Son of God. What makes anyone else great is only about how close they are to the Son of God. Of all men born of women, John the Baptist was the greatest because he was the closest to the Son of God, being his forerunner announcing His coming.
But Jesus says that even the least person in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than this John the Baptist. This must mean that the least person in the church age born of the Holy Spirit has an even closer relationship to the Son of God. The Son of God is living in them -
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) [edited]
Only after He could give us divine life could we have the One who is Life living in us.
I believe that this life giving Spirit which regenerates a man and imparts the Son of God INTO the innermost being, was not yet. If the life giving Spirit always was then there was no reason for the last Adam to become a life giving Spirit. In Christ was life from eternity. But to give life, making the least in the kingdom of the heavens greater than the greatest John the Baptist, was not until the One who came to give life (John 10:10) became a life giving Spirit.
He compounded the human experience in its incarnation, living, dying, and resurrection into the eternal Spirit.
29 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipCan't you get it through your thick head that the translation is correct when it says "not yet given" because it is a "given" that "given" shoud be added to the English translation to make sense of it.
[quote] The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
(Luke 1:35)
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by ...[text shortened]... he human experience in its incarnation, living, dying, and resurrection into the eternal Spirit.
He means the Holy Spirit had not yet been given to all believers, because Jesus had not yet even been glorified, so that all believers can be saved. Or it might have been translated like this:
The Holy Spirit was not yet sent, because Jesus was not yet even glorified.
It is talking about "receiving" the Holy Spirit, so it could be "sent and received" or "given and received". Do you understand how that works?
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01 Aug 14
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHinds
Can't you get it through your thick head that the translation is correct when it says "not yet given" because it is a "given" that "given" shoud be added to the English translation to make sense of it.
That is not a strong argument for you because not all translators agree that "given" is the word that HAS to be supplied there.
And even if it WAS the literal Greek to English translation (which it is not) that does not address that "the Spirit of Jesus" though mentioned in the New Testament, is NOT mentioned in the Old Testament.
So "the Spirit of Jesus" Was not or was not GIVEN or both was not and was not given.
Now for the sake of pushback, we DO have the expression "the Spirit of Christ" mentioned in connection with the Old Testament prophets.
No, I did not overlook that passage of Peter -
"Concerning this salvation the prophets, who prophesied concerning the grace that was to come unto you, sought and searched diligently,
Searching into what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ in them was making clear, testifying beforehand of the sufferings of Christ and the glories after these."
In the local churches and without also many Christians are interested in the truth. I do not withhold data that could be argued contrary to what I have written about "the Spirit was not yet".
Here in First Peter 1:10,11 we have a passage about "the Spirit of Christ" that was in the Old Testament prophets. So then, doesn't this prove that it is wrong to say that Spirit was not yet OR not yet given to men in John 7:39?
1.) The highly respected Vaticanus MS omits, of Christ. The omission would fit into the revelation concerning the Spirit not being yet or yet given.
2.) However, other authoritative MSS do have "of Christ" in their text. In the NT the Spirit of Christ denotes the Spirit after the reusrrection of Christ.
IE. "But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."
Before Christ's resurrection, the Spirit was the Spirit of God from eternity. The man Jesus Christ had not been incarnated, lived, died and resurrected in the Old Testament. So no "Spirit of Jesus" or "Spirit of Jesus Christ" is mentioned in connection to the Old Testament saints.
However, Christ [not the man Jesus] as God eternal is mentioned. For example -
Herbews 11:24-27 - "By faith Moses, when he had grown up ... choosing rather to be ill-treated with the people of God than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin, Choosing the reproach of the Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he looked away towards the reward."
First Corinthians 10:4 - "And all drank thesame spiritual drink; for they drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and that rock was Christ."
These two passages mention Christ in connection to God's activity of being a Savior to the Old Testament believers. In function, God as a Savior Christ is even before the incarnation of the man Jesus. The man Jesus HAD a beginning in the incarnation of the Son of God, the Logos, God Himself, as a human in a virgins womb - "Jesus" .
It is understandable then that the term "the Christ" or even "the Spirit of Christ" would be mentioned in connection with God's Old Testament acts of rescue, salvation, sending His servants or anointing His prophets.
But the the Spirit of Christ, the eternal God, is not called "the Spirit of Jesus" (Acts 16:7) and "the Spirit of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:19) could only BE "yet" until AFTER the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of the Godman Jesus.
In function God as a Savior or an Anointed Christ is indeed from eternity. It is appropriate that "the Spirit of Christ" be understood as God the eternal Spirit even in the Old Testament times.
But the Spirit that was not yet was that Spirit which contained in addition the experience of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is available only after Jesus was glorified in resurrection.
"Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory?" (Luke 24:26)
Here in Luke I understand "His glory" to be applied to His resurrection specifically rather than to His ascension. He suffered, He died, and He was glorified in RESURRECTION.
The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified says John 7:39). IE. was not yet resurrected from the dead.
He means the Holy Spirit had not yet been given to all believers, because Jesus had not yet even been glorified, so that all believers can be saved. Or it might have been translated like this:
The Holy Spirit was not yet sent, because Jesus was not yet even glorified.
It is talking about "receiving" the Holy Spirit, so it could be "sent and received" or "given and received". Do you understand how that works?
I no longer believe that this way of interpreting that passage is the best. I use to take it this way. I not longer do.
If the Word BECAME flesh (John 1:14) that means that the Word, the Logos, and God Himself passed through a process. What He had not associated with Himself before He BECAME.
If the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit then also this man who is God incarnated passed through a process. If He was life giving Spirit why was there a need for Him to BECOME a life giving Spirit?
If the Logos WAS flesh, why was there a need for Him to BECOME flesh?
In His economical outpouring the Trinity passed through a process of incarnation, human living, death, and resurrection for the need to impart Godman as the Spirit into us.
First Corinthians 15:45 makes John 7:39 make sense that the Spirit was not only not given, but was not yet, until Jesus the incarnated Godman, was resurrected.
But 100% systematization of the Bible's revelation I do not claim to be able to make. So I do not claim my case here is 100% concrete closed. I do think it is the better interpretation of John 3:39 / First Corinthians 15:45.
At any rate, the word of Jesus is "Receive the Holy Spirit" . So as long as we do "Receive the Holy Spirit" and continue to do so, we fulfill the will of God.