- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
22 Nov 16
1 edit
Originally posted by karoly aczelThe millennial kingdom is one thousand years.
So the "millenial" thing is just what? 3000 years?
I don't get this millenerianism
Below is Revelation 20:1 - 7 quoted with thousand years put in bold to assist you. You will see that thousand years is specified six times.
"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
And cast him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little while.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and of those who had not worshipped the beast nor his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison ... " (Rev. 20:1-7)
Before the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth described in the next two chapters of Revelation 21 and 22 we can see is a preliminary age of one thousand years of the reigning of Christ on the earth.
22 Nov 16
Originally posted by sonshipSo satan was released in 1000A.D. ?
The millennial kingdom is one thousand years.
Below is [b] Revelation 20:1 - 7 quoted with thousand years put in bold to assist you. You will see that thousand years is specified six times.
[quote] "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dra ...[text shortened]... b] we can see is a preliminary age of one thousand years of the reigning of Christ on the earth.[/b]
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
22 Nov 16
1 edit
Originally posted by karoly aczelAfter the millennial period Satan will be released from his prison for what the Bible says is " for a little while " (v.3)
So satan was released in 1000A.D. ?
I do not know how long this "little while" is. To God "little while" might be longer then we might initially assume.
So the length of "a little while" is not known by me.
No one has ever helped me to know how long it is.
What else could God do during this period ?
I don't know. And maybe He is keeping that to Himself.
But Satan will be again let loosed for a while before he goes into eternal damnation.
" And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison.
And will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. Their number is like that of the sand of the sea."
These must be some of the people born during the millennial kingdom.
This is the way they show their thanks to Christ for 1,000 years of a paradise earth with peace and prosperity and plenty.
When I first read this it seemed to be to be like a comic book. Then eventually I saw that simplicity is not always naivete. This episode reveals some things:
1.) Satan will never repent.
2.) Men under paradise conditions who are not sons of God, still have the capacity to be deceived.
3.) Some born under paradise conditions will be given a chance to decide for or against Christ.
"And they went up upon the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; and fire came down out of heaven and devoured them." (v.9)
This will be the final war among human beings on earth.
This is the final war after the 1,000 year millennial kingdom consisting of a rebellion of multitudes born during the millennial time. They have known nothing but blessing from the Messiah Christ.
Somehow, they are again deceived by the released Satan.
I don't believe all of them will be deceived.
"And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (v.10)
Following this is the last judgment.
Following the last judgment is the eternal age.
This eternal age is the climax of history and the culmination of God's eternal purpose.
All the saved are perfected by this time to be sons of God, brothers of Christ the Firstborn Son. This is all described in symbols and signs in Revelation 21 and 22 the very last two chapters of the divine revelation of the Bible.
23 Nov 16
Originally posted by sonshipJust out of curiosity, have you figured out the two groups yet?
Seven Sections of [b]Revelation 14
1.) Verses 1 - 5 The Firstfruits of the Beleivers before the Great Tribulation.
2.) Verses 6,7 The Eternal Gospel in the Great Tribulation
3.) Verse 8 The Fall of Religious Babylon in the Great Tribulation
4.) Verses 9 - 12 Warning Against the Worship of A ...[text shortened]... apter 14 to master all the facts and prepare for an exposition to help comprehend these visions.[/b]
One of them is mentioned in Re 14:1.😲
23 Nov 16
Originally posted by sonshipIf they are in Paradise, why would they want a resurrection?
The important point about the first of the seven sections, I think, is that though physical rapture is indicated, it is not described in detail.
Notice that it just shows these people standing before God in heaven.
[quote] [b] " And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name an ...[text shortened]... earn to live in Christ, unto Christ, and by Christ growing in the joy of following Jesus Christ.
That's where Jesus is,
(Luke 23:43) And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”
That doesn't make any sense.
Also if you believe in a "rapture", are you a Jesuit?
They are adherents of that misconception.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
23 Nov 16
2 edits
Originally posted by roigam
If they are in Paradise, why would they want a resurrection?
I am not sure what you are asking or objecting to.
Are you referring to the people i said were under "Paradise conditions" ?
By "Paradise conditions" I do not mean the "Paradise" that Jesus and the thief that died with Him went to when they were executed in Luke 23:43.
The citizens physically living during the millennial kingdom who are not sons of God, are the peoples reigned over by the sons of God. The earth is restored much to the condition of the garden of Eden as originally made as in the days of Adam (Gen. 2)..
That restoral of the plenty, bounty, and sufficiency of the planet is what I called "Paradise conditions". Perhaps "Paradise conditions" should not have a capitalized "P". And perhaps I should rather use the term "restored earth."
The "Why would they want to be resurrected?" question, I don't quite understand from what I wrote there. You'll have to clarify your meaning to me.
Maybe it will become clearer below.
That's where Jesus is,
(Luke 23:43) And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”
That doesn't make any sense.
I did not say that the inhabitants of the millennial kingdom were physically dead or in the Paradise where Jesus and the dying thief went.
It makes sense to say that during that period the earth is like the garden of Eden.
You know about that. That is a big subject to the JWs. So I do not need to provide you with many verses that you already know, say from the prophet Isaiah, for example Isaiah 11:1-16 or Psalm 72.
These prophecies are concerning people living on the earth during the millennial reign of the David Messianic King. They are not concerned with departed souls in Hades (or the Paradise section of Hades).
Also if you believe in a "rapture", are you a Jesuit?
They are adherents of that misconception.
No I am not a Jesuit and don't know much about Jesuits.
And when you complain that I believe in the rapture, I do not know what goes through your mind at the phrase "rapture." You may have a strawman argument in your mind.
So to be specific, some saints of God are physically taken off the surface of the planet. We were given a foretaste of this truth in the lives of Enoch in Genesis 5:22-24 and Elijah in Second Kings 2:1-18.
And Jesus taught about a taking away of watching and vigilant Christians before the great tribulation. And afterwards also Christians are taken up to the air.
24 Nov 16
Originally posted by sonship1) You are right in saying the Paradise will be on Earth.If they are in Paradise, why would they want a resurrection?
I am not sure what you are asking or objecting to.
Are you referring to the people i said were under "Paradise conditions" ?
By "Paradise conditions" I do not mean the [b]"Paradise" that Jesus and the thief that died with Him went to when they were executed in Luk ...[text shortened]... Christians before the great tribulation. And afterwards also Christians are taken up to the air.
My point is, why would whoever is in that Paradise want to leave it?
We were created to be in that Paradise and make the whole Earth a Paradise.
(Genesis 1:28) Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”
That is man's assignment from our Creator.
Leaving doesn't make sense as it would be the same mistake Adam made, not obeying God.
2) It seems like you do have a partial understanding about the 144,000 but you seem to
circumvent their literal number.
3) They have the privilege of ruling with the Christ in fulfilling Jehovah God's original purpose to have the Earth a Paradise.
This will include educating the ones who come back in the resurrection (John 5:28, 29 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.).
They for the most part do not know Jehovah but they will have an opportunity to learn.
Then all who subject themselves to Jehovah through Christ Jesus will contribute to the making of the Paradise.
The effort will be overseen by the Christ Jesus and 144,000.
How loving of Jehovah to choose 144,000 who have the experience of being human to
oversee that project.
4) Hades is just the common Grave of all mankind.
There are no sections to Hades unless you believe Dante who was never there
until he died.
Don't you think Jehovah knows and speaks the truth.
(Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Our hope is forgiveness and the gift of life again through Jesus who will be instrumental in the resurrection.
There's more but hopefully that will give you something to think about. Bon Voyage!
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
25 Nov 16
5 edits
Originally posted by roigam
1) You are right in saying the Paradise will be on Earth.
My point is, why would whoever is in that Paradise want to leave it?
Recall that Adam left it though he was put into it.
You see for a good man, even a very good man, neutral and fine out from the created hand of God, to live in a garden paradise, still does not meet God's central purpose.
Before Adam partook of the tree of life he decided to rebel and leave this garden paradise as a result of that rebellion. He did not have God's life imparted into him to mingle him with God.
But he was a very good creation. And as such, even though he dwelt in a garden paradise, he decided to join Satan. Being joined and poisoned in his being by the union with Satan, he was excluded from receiving God into him, He was (alienated from the life of God (Eph. 4:18)) .
We were created to be in that Paradise and make the whole Earth a Paradise.
(Genesis 1:28) Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”
This is all true. But chapter two shows us something about the man with this mandate being place before "the tree of life". This tree of life" signifies God Himself entering into man to blend and mingle humanity with God's own uncreated divine life.
This Adam failed to partake of. And though he had a blessing and a wonderful mandate, he never received God into him.
God has good angels that live forever.
God can make good people that also live forever.
This may meet man's need, to be very good and live forever in a garden. But this does not meet God's eternal purpose to cause man and God to blend and mingle in oneness. And this deeper purpose, the mingling of divinity with humanity would have been Adam's in the eating of the fruit of "the tree of life".
God never entered INTO the very good man in the garden. And before God could Satan entered into man and united with man. Then the was to the tree of life was closed and the good man was not only forbidden to receive God's life into him but was also expelled from the garden.
"And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and live forever - (Gen. 3:22)
Before Adam had sinned he had not taken into him the life of God.
After Adam had sinned he of course was excluded from taking in the life of God.
In the millennial kingdom human beings who are not sons of God with the indwelling life of God, via Christ's salvation, will restored to be as the good Adam. But the very good Adam was neutral between Satan and God. And he was able to decide that he did not want to be under God's authority.
If we see some restored human beings who are not regenerated, not sons of God in the sense of Christ dwelling within them, some of them will be exposed after the millennial kingdom when Satan is loosed from the abyss.
The Conclusion of the New Testament by Witness Lee. Msg. 127, explains:
Following the defeat of Antichrist is the binding and imprisonment of Satan to clear up the rebellious earth so that the kingdom of Christ may come (vv. 4-6). Satan will be bound and cast into the abyss, which is in the heart of the earth, and he will be imprisoned there for a thousand years. After that, “he must be loosed for a little while” (v. 3). Before casting him into the lake of fire, where he will be tormented forever and ever (v. 10), Christ will bind the devil and cast him into the abyss for one thousand years. This is because the devil will still be somewhat useful in fulfilling God’s purpose at the end of the coming millennium. The abyss may be likened to a temporary jail, and the lake of fire to an eternal prison.
After the war at Armageddon, the Lord will establish His throne of glory in Jerusalem and gather before Him all the nations still on earth. He will then execute His judgment upon them. This will be Christ’s judgment of the living carried out according to the eternal gospel preached by an angel in mid-heaven (14:6). The “goats” will go to the fire prepared for the devil and his angels, and the “sheep” will enter into the millennial kingdom as citizens (Matt. 25:32-34). Although these “sheep” will be restored, they will not be regenerated. They will still have a rebellious nature within them; thus, they will need a further test a thousand years later. Because the Lord will use Satan to test them, He will not cast Satan into the lake of fire at the beginning of the millennium. When the thousand years are over, the Lord will release Satan from the abyss and use him to test the citizens who have been on earth during the millennium. Gog and Magog will not pass the test. Under Satan’s instigation, they will once more rebel against God. In this we can see that Satan will still be useful in God’s hands to purge mankind.
My bolding.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
God's eternal purpose was not just for a good man to be in a garden paradise with everything he needs. God's eternal plan is to mass produce God-men as the prototype God-man - Jesus Christ.
This man as, the second man, is God mingled with man.
This second man and "the last Adam" become the Spirit of God's life to enter into our being. He is the reality of the tree of life today.
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
Through receiving Jesus we can be born a second time, with the life of God. This ends our being ignorant, being [b]"alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18)
cont. below
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
25 Nov 16
2 edits
That is man's assignment from our Creator.
Leaving doesn't make sense as it would be the same mistake Adam made, not obeying God.
You don't realize that for a man to be good and blessed may meet our need but not God's will. But God has the need of His eternal purpose, to unite with man making him a God-man.
Jesus Christ Heads up this deeper aspect of man's creation - to have "many brothers" conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son Who is God and man united to be one.
This man is not just good and in a garden.
This is God become a man, firstly in Christ.
And this the fullest purpose of God living in man.
The earthen vessel may be restored to be undamaged and good. But the eternal purpose is not yet fulfilled that God's life in Christ, as the treasure , would enter into the earthen vessel.
" But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not out of us." (2 Cor. 4:7)
There can be a very good earthen vessel which is empty.
There can be a redeemed earthen vessel into which the life of God has come to be "this treasure in earthen vessels".
To be "alienated from the life of God" is to not possess the "treasure in earthen vessels".
God's eternal plan calls for something beyond a good and happy man with everything he needs living in a garden paradise or on a restored earth. God's eternal plan is to dispense His life INTO the earthen vessel that God may live in man.
Look to Jesus the Son of God to see the Prototype and the standard Model of what God is after ultimately - God-maan.
In resurrection the second Head of this new race, the last Adam, became in a form in which He can enter into man as a God giving Spirit.
" the last Adam became a life giving Spirit " (1 Cor. 15:45)
2) It seems like you do have a partial understanding about the 144,000 but you seem to
circumvent their literal number.
You have to key into two words which both indicate the GROWTH of life:
Firstfruits
Harvest
The difference is only in TIMING. Firstfruits appear first or early. Harvest appears afterwards.
This is why I think Revelatuio 14 is so useful as a synopsis of the end of the age, a corner study.
Generally speaking a remnant of living people will become a kind of corporate Enoch. They will live Christ, follow Christ, be taken and raptured for God's satisfaction - early.
Afterwards, the Harvest of people with God's growing His divine life in them, will follow. It is a matter of timing. Firstfruits mature early or first. This is a remnant. Harvest follows shortly and surely afterwards.
Generally speaking this is depicted in the rapture of Firstfruits in Revelation 14:1-20. This is the first reaping of God-men "plants"[/b] before the great tribulation. And at the end of that tribulation we see the reaping of the majority, a Harvest - verses 14-16.
Timing is different. But the essential nature of the Firstfruits and the Harvest is the same. They are men and women with Jesus Christ dispensed into them. The have the living treasure within their earthen vessels.
The church is seen as God's farm to grow God's life in Christ within the saved.
" I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth." (1 Cor. 3:6)
"For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's farm, God's building." (v.9)
The Firstfruits and the Harvest are both of God's farm and are for God's building.
The building is built by the growing of Christ in people.
This requires a whole discussion of its own. But you should see that the believers have Christ growing in them. And at the end of this church age, God testifies to the world by showing His mark of approval in that raptures will take place to temporarily remove them from the earth to Christ above the earth.
This is seen in the reaping/ rapture of Firstfruits - Revelation 14:1-5 and a reaping/rapture of a Harvest - Rev. 14:14-16 .
This is a minority followed by a majority. The difference is in timing.
Your other point 3 I may address latter.
The church is God's farm and God's building. The farm is for growing Jesus in people. The building is a corporate aggregate of God growing in a collective group of people to build them up together in the life of Christ.
God cannot fail to obtain a mature crop from the farm.
God cannot fail to obtain a large building.
Both the plants individually and the building corporately are a matter of God in Christ entering into man. This is the reality of eating from the tree of life.
In the millennial kingdom the sons of God reign over those nations who are transferred from the church age over into the millennial age. The latter are restored to be in the state that Adam was before he fell. But these "sheep" are not regenerated.
I say to you that you do not want to be in this group is you wish to be saved today. You do not know if the great tribulation comes whether you will survive that period. It is better to decide to receive Jesus as Lord into your heart now while you have opportunity.
But this will require that you no longer take Him to be an angel but to be God-man, the Son of God. He is the Lord and Savior. And we must realize He is the Word of God become flesh.
In resurrection, He can impart God as life into all those redeemed by His precious blood.
" But as many as RECEIVED Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name."
You don't believe into His name to become a child of God with God's life growing in you, if you reject Christ as only a created angel such as Michael.
Man is not born gain because man acknowledged that God has angels.
It is the Son of God that we must nor reject or redefine according to our rejection of Him.
It is the Son of God received into our hearts that gives this authority to be born into God's family. The passage goes on to say:
" ... to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,
Who were BEGOTTEN not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (v.12c,13)
We should call on the Lord Jesus and receive Him to be BORN, to be BEGOTTEN of God, with God's life imparted as Spirit of life into our earthen vessels. We can be born of God. We can be born again though we are naturally already born and older.
We can be born to be the children, and eventually the sons, of the Father. This is higher than a good man in a garden where everything he needs outwardly he has. This is rather to take the fruit of "the tree of life" and have Christ come into our hearts.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
25 Nov 16
2 edits
early morning sloppy typos corrected:
A man is not born again [edited] because a man acknowledges that God has angels. It is the Son of God that we must not [edited] reject or redefine according to our rejection of Him. Him, Jesus Christ the Son, we must receive to be born again.