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24 Nov 05
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeThank you, my point in general.🙂
For X to be identical to Y and Y to be identical to Z and Z to be identical to X (i.e., all be One) they have to have all their properties in common, not just one essential property in common. But clearly, in the case of the Trinity, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost do not have all their properties in common. For, if they did, how could we distinguish th ...[text shortened]... person of the Trinity, if the concept is even to be coherent. What is incoherent cannot be true.
24 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by checkbaitercheckbaiter: "Man, this is a tough read...lots of mumbo jumbo...."
Man, this is a tough read...lots of mumbo jumbo....
The dogma of the Holy Trinity
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do nolike these...the trinity makes no sense and I still contend that scripture does not support it.
checkbaiter: "the trinity makes no sense and I still contend that scripture does not support it"
Placing numerous Scripture quotes in opposition to eachother and labelling parts of the RC Cathechism as "lots of mumbo jumbo" will not get you far. If you want to find out the Truth and exactly where in Scripture you can find the revelation of the Triune God, I'm afraid you'll have to do some hard work and maybe sweat a little ....... you'll survive though ..... 😉
24 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterLook to Michael Servetus. John Calvin invited him to a roasting in Geneva--his.
Man, this is a tough read...lots of mumbo jumbo....
The dogma of the Holy Trinity
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, like these...the trinity makes no sense and I still contend that scripture does not support it.
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24 Nov 05
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Originally posted by ivanhoeI am not discriminatly labeling the RCC, but all of Christianity, including the local church I attend. They believe the same as you. I have gone round and round with the pastor there and we are at an impasse. But at least he isn't labeling me as a reprobate as the other churches I have visited. They don't believe I am saved, simply because I question their doctrine.
checkbaiter: "Man, this is a tough read...lots of mumbo jumbo...."
checkbaiter: "the trinity makes no sense and I still contend that scripture does not support it"
Placing numerous Scripture quotes in opposition to eachother and labelling parts of the RC Cathechism as "lots of mumbo jumbo" will not get you far. If you want to find out the Truth a ...[text shortened]... u'll have to do some hard work and maybe sweat a little ....... you'll survive though ..... 😉
I believe in God the Father and in His Son Jesus Christ. I believe Jesus was born of a virgin and that He was my substitute for sin on the cross. I am totally committed to Jesus Christ. It pleased God to make Him head of the church which is His body, we being members.
I just don't believe in a three headed God.
Jesus Christ is so much more a hero to me when I understand Him being a man and not God. He really felt the whippings, the nails through His hands and feet. He had to trust God to raise Him from the dead. I can identify with Him as one tempted in all points as we are. I can understand his anguish praying in the garden, not to himself but to his Father. He was and is a remarkable Saviour....I cannot identify with a Godman.🙂
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24 Nov 05
Originally posted by WulebgrYes...he was killed for his belief as well as many others who questioned the Trinity. I have a book somewhere that lists many Unitarians murdered for their belief. I hope I am not confusing anyone with the Unitarian name. I am in no way affilliated with the Unitarian Universalist church. They don't even believe the bible.
Look to Michael Servetus. John Calvin invited him to a roasting in Geneva--his.
24 Nov 05
Originally posted by Pawnokeyholenow i was told there was to be no math
For X to be identical to Y and Y to be identical to Z and Z to be identical to X (i.e., all be One) they have to have all their properties in common, not just one essential property in common. But clearly, in the case of the Trinity, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost do not have all their properties in common. For, if they did, how could we distinguish th ...[text shortened]... person of the Trinity, if the concept is even to be coherent. What is incoherent cannot be true.
24 Nov 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterThere is a website you can get into through Google:God as a Trinity---
No, the problem is that I don't see the trinity as something supported by scripture.
idolphin.org/names.html
Which is an article by Lambert Dolphin, whic goes into great Biblical detail. It is very good and Will answer your question. And there will be no outside interferrence
There are Scriptures that i have been given by THE LORD, but as you know it is said that I am not undrstood. Try the article by Lambert Dolphin. It is best to go in through Google. Going through www.idolphin.org/names.html. seems to be a puzzle.
24 Nov 05
Originally posted by checkbaitercheckbaiter: "They don't believe I am saved, simply because I question their doctrine."
I am not discriminatly labeling the RCC, but all of Christianity, including the local church I attend. They believe the same as you. I have gone round and round with the pastor there and we are at an impasse. But at least he isn't labeling me as a reprobate as the other churches I have visited. They don't believe I am saved, simply because I question t ...[text shortened]... self but to his Father. He was and is a remarkable Saviour....I cannot identify with a Godman.🙂
Paul taught us to examine all things. So you're on the right path.
checkbaiter: "Jesus Christ is so much more a hero to me when I understand Him being a man and not God.
Jesus Christ is 100% man and 100% God. Jesus Christ did not only reveal true God to man, he also revealed true man to man. He taught us how to become true human beings fulfilled in relationship with God. Maybe here is the point where you are stuck.
If you would reread your Scripture quotes with the above in mind, maybe it would get you somewhere. I haven't done this yet, but I will after I posted this comment.
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24 Nov 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeThat is the problem...one cannot be 100% God and 100% man. If you say 50% man, etc. at least this would make more sense to me. What you and others propose equals 200%. 🙄
[b]checkbaiter: "They don't believe I am saved, simply because I question their doctrine."
Paul taught us to examine all things. So you're on the right path.
checkbaiter: "Jesus Christ is so much more a hero to me when I understand Him being a man and not God.
Jesus Christ is 100% man and 100% God. Jesus Christ did not only reveal t ...[text shortened]... be it would get you somewhere. I haven't done this yet, but I will after I posted this comment.[/b]
The Trinity is illogical and unbiblical.🙂
24 Nov 05
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Originally posted by checkbaiterYour conclusion might be correct, but your reasoning is not.
That is the problem...one cannot be 100% God and 100% man. If you say 50% man, etc. at least this would make more sense to me. What you and others propose equals 200%.
There can exist something that is 100% dog and 100% animal without being two beasts. This is because the properties of animals are a subset of the properties of dogs.
So, an entity could be 100% God and 100% man if the characterizing properties of God or man were a subset of the characterizing properties of the other. This idea, actually, is not altogether unbiblical.
24 Nov 05
I think it was Jung who postulated that the concept of the trinity was incomplete. The archetype for "wholeness" should have a fourth aspect and be a quaternity. He reasoned that the Catholic church's emphasis on Mary was the natural addition to the trinity as there needed to be an aspect of the feminine that was lacking in traditional "God language" and thought. I think there is more to his thought than this, but this is the essence of his thinking about it.
24 Nov 05
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesThe correct statement of the doctrine is that Jesus was fully man and fully God; i.e. he possessed all essential attributes of man and all essential attributes of God.
Your conclusion might be correct, but your reasoning is not.
There can exist something that is 100% dog and 100% animal without being two beasts. This is because the properties of animals are a subset of the properties of dogs.
So, an entity could be 100% God and 100% man if the characterizing properties of God or man were a subset of the characterizing properties of the other. This idea, actually, is not altogether unbiblical.
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24 Nov 05
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Originally posted by blindfaith101[/b]Alright, here is what I found in the website you referred which will explain everything to me.....
There is a website you can get into through Google:God as a Trinity---
idolphin.org/names.html
Which is an article by Lambert Dolphin, whic goes into great Biblical detail. It is very good and Will answer your question. And there will be no outside interferrence
There are Scriptures that i have been given by THE LORD, but as you know it is said tha ...[text shortened]... s best to go in through Google. Going through www.idolphin.org/names.html. seems to be a puzzle.
Q: "What about the doctrine of the Trinity, the Holy Trinity?"
our A: "Trinity" is a term that is not found in the Bible but a word used to describe what is apparent about God in the Scriptures. The Bible clearly speaks of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit...and also clearly presents that there is only one God. Thus the term: "Tri" meaning three, and "Unity" meaning one, Tri+Unity = Trinity. It is a way of acknowledging what the Bible reveals to us about God, that God is yet three "Persons" who have the same essence of deity.
Show me where the bible clearly says God the Son.
Some have tried to give human illustrations for the Trinity, such as H2O being water, ice and steam (all different forms, but all are H2O). Another illustration is an egg having a shell, egg yolk and egg white, but this egg illustration shows that there would be "parts" to God, which isn't the case.
Agreed.
God the Son (Jesus) is fully, completely God. God the Father is fully, completely God. And God the Holy Spirit is fully, completely God. Yet there is only one God. In our world, with our limited human experience, it's tough to understand the Trinity. But from the beginning we see God this way in Scripture. Notice the plural pronouns "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26 -- Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
Oh really? Didn't the Queen of England refer to herself as "we"? Isn't this simply a term of royalty? And besides could He have been referring to angelic beings?
Though not a complete list, here is some other Scripture that shows God is one, in Trinity:
* "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (Deut. 6:4)
This one only strengthens my position.
* "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." (Isa. 45:5)
* There is no God but one. (1Cor. 8:4)
These support my position as well.
* And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." (Matt. 3:16-17)
???? How is this verse even relevant?
* "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19)
c&p.... Eusebius (c. 260—c. 340) was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” Although he wrote prolifically, his most celebrated work is his Ecclesiastical History, a history of the Church from the Apostolic period until his own time. Today it is still the principal work on the history of the Church at that time. Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. He never quotes it as it appears today in modern Bibles, but always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.” For example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:
But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”
Again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:
What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.”
Eusebius was present at the council of Nicaea and was involved in the debates about Arian teaching and whether Christ was God or a creation of God. We feel confident that if the manuscripts he had in front of him read “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” he would never have quoted it as “in my name.” Thus, we believe that the earliest manuscripts read “in my name,” and that the phrase was enlarged to reflect the orthodox position as Trinitarian influence spread.
2. If Matthew 28:19 is accurate as it stands in modern versions, then there is no explanation for the apparent disobedience of the apostles, since there is not a single occurrence of them baptizing anyone according to that formula. All the records in the New Testament show that people were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus, just as the text Eusebius was quoting said to do. In other words, the “name of Jesus Christ,” i.e., all that he represents, is the element, or substance, into which people were figuratively “baptized.” “Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins’” (Acts 2:38). “They had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 8:16). “So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ” (Acts 10:48). “On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 19:5). We cannot imagine any reason for the Apostles and others in Acts to disobey a command of the risen Christ. To us, it seems clear that Christ said to baptize in his name, and that was what the early Church did.
3. Even if the Father, Son and holy spirit are mentioned in the original text of this verse, that does not prove the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity states that the Father, Son and “Holy Spirit” together make “one God.” This verse refers to three, but never says they are “one.” The three things this verse refers to are: God the Father, the Lord Jesus and the power of holy spirit (We say “holy spirit” instead of “Holy Spirit” because we believe that this verse is referring to God’s gift of holy spirit that is born inside each believer. It is lower case because it refers to the gift of God and not God. The original Greek texts were all written in what scholars call “uncial script,” which uses all capital letters. Thus, although we today make a distinction between “Spirit” and “spirit,” in the originals every use was just “SPIRIT.” Whether or not it should be capitalized is a translator’s decision, based on the context of the verse.
* Jesus said: "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)
* "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." (John 14:9)
* "He who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me." (John 12:45)
As I already stated these verses imply the character. Jesus is LIKE God, not God. He declared or made Him known. See Hebrews 1:1...
* If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Rom. 8:9)
N/A
* "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 1:20)
* And the angel answered and said to her [Mary], "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)
Holy Spirit is another name for God since He is Holy and He is Spirit.
* [Jesus speaking to His disciples] "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." ... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him." (John 14:16-17, 23)
This is God's "gift" of holy spirit which every believers receives at salvation. There is nothing even remotely compelling about this website. It only reiterates all I have heard a thousand times before.
24 Nov 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterA child is 100% the child of his mother and 100% the child of his father. In this sense Jesus Christ is 100% human and 100% divine.
That is the problem...one cannot be 100% God and 100% man. If you say 50% man, etc. at least this would make more sense to me. What you and others propose equals 200%. 🙄
The Trinity is illogical and unbiblical.🙂