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26 Nov 05
The Man Christ Jesus...
He is the only man who was ever born of a virgin (Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35). God put a perfect seed in the womb of Mary so that Jesus would be born without the sin nature that every other human being inherited from the First Adam. Therefore, Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God (John 3:16) and the Son of Man (John 5:27).
He is the only man who is called “the Last Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45). As the only-begotten Son of God, Jesus was the genetic equivalent to the first “Son of God,” Adam (Luke 3:38). As the only man born without inherent sin, Jesus was thus the only man equipped to be the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. Romans 5:12-21 is the classic comparison of these two Adams and the respective impact each had on mankind
He is the only man who had perfect faith in God, and who, by his free will choices to trust God, lived a sinless life, always doing the will of his Father (John 8:29). Jesus was not a robot, programmed to obey God. If so, he could not have been genuinely tempted to sin, just like all men he came to save (Heb. 4:15). The absence of a sin nature was not the reason why Jesus did not sin. We know that because the First Adam also had no sin nature, and he sinned royally.
He is the only man who died as the perfect sacrifice for our sins (Heb. 10:12-14; 1 John 4:10). By his virgin birth, Jesus was the “genetically” perfect sacrifice for the sin of mankind. By his lifelong obedience to God, all the way to his dying breath on the Cross, he became the “behaviorally” perfect sacrifice for the sins of mankind (Heb. 2:17). Thus, he was the complete propitiation for fallen men to be redeemed
He is the only man whom God highly exalted as “Lord” and “Head of the Church,” and to whom God has given all authority in heaven and on earth (Dan. 7:13-14; Phil. 2:9; Acts 2:36; Eph. 1:22; Matt. 28:18). As Pharaoh exalted Joseph to his right hand and gave him all authority in Egypt (Gen. 41:37-46), so God has given Jesus functional equality with Himself. Jesus Christ is now God’s “right hand man” (Eph. 1:20), carrying out the work that will eventually restore this fallen world.
He is the only man who is our Savior, our Redeemer, our Mediator, our Lord, our constant Companion, our Best Friend, our Big Brother, the Light of our lives, our Peace, our Joy, and our Mentor in the art of faith.
He is the Lover of our souls, and that is why I love him and confess him as Lord (Rom. 10:9).
26 Nov 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterWhat is your understanding on JOHN 1:1-14
Now, in my own words, I would like to say that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour. I owe Him my life and He is my hero. I follow Him as best I can...having said that, He is not God the Father. I believe God is the Creator of the heavens and the earth, and His plan all along was to "create" His Son, just like the 1st Adam, to redeem mankind.
I also be ...[text shortened]... age and contradict the bible. I have more to say, but am short on time and will be back later.🙂
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26 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by blindfaith101In the beginning was the logos, (the plan that God had from the beginning in His mind) and this plan was now manifest in the flesh in the person of His Son to carry it out further. If you had read my earlier post, this is covered in detail.🙂
What is your understanding on JOHN 1:1-14
Edit...see page 1 of this thread.
26 Nov 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterHow is that different? When GOD says the were on what does that mean? JESUS being GOD is a fact. JESUS died on the cross was as real as real can be. Any other thoughts would make GOD a liar wouldn't it.
Yes they are. A man and a woman are one. But this is far different than the Trinity. Are you saying Jesus being God is a metaphor? A figure of speech?
Did Jesus die figuratively?😕
The whole problem started about 400AD. When the Catholic Church came up with other teachings other than the BIBLE. You stated you wanted to understand from the Teachings of THE WORD OF GOD. Can't you put aside other Teachings and look at it from THE WORD OF GOD.
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26 Nov 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101How is that different? When GOD says the were on what does that mean?
How is that different? When GOD says the were on what does that mean? JESUS being GOD is a fact. JESUS died on the cross was as real as real can be. Any other thoughts would make GOD a liar wouldn't it.
The whole problem started about 400AD. When the Catholic Church came up with other teachings other than the BIBLE. You stated you wanted to understa ...[text shortened]... s of THE WORD OF GOD. Can't you put aside other Teachings and look at it from THE WORD OF GOD.
??????
JESUS being GOD is a fact.
In your mind.
JESUS died on the cross was as real as real can be. Any other thoughts would make GOD a liar wouldn't it.
Jesus really died on the cross, yes, and yes.
The whole problem started about 400AD. When the Catholic Church came up with other teachings other than the BIBLE.
I believe this is when the Trinity was introduced, yes.
You stated you wanted to understand from the Teachings of THE WORD OF GOD. Can't you put aside other Teachings and look at it from THE WORD OF GOD.
I thought that is what I was doing.
26 Nov 05
Originally posted by DarfiusAs regards (2), it doesn't fix the problem we are discussing.
Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
[b]As regards (2), you may be correct that an alternative definition of omniscience is superior. But maximal knowledge would still include knowledge of the answer that Jesus asked. Since Jesus asked it of God, Jesus evidently presumes that God knows the answer, and therefore that God knows more than He does. This, at ...[text shortened]... of divine self-knowledge.
Given your false premise, this paragraph was a waste of space.[/b]
The problem under discussion is with the assertion that Jesus is, at the same time, both fully God and man, the Trinitarian assertion. I don't think that this assertion makes any sense for the simple reason that at least some of the essential attributes traditionally assigned to one or the other (e.g., ignorance to man, omniscience to God) are not logically compatible.
What does "restraining" his divine power or other divine properties mean? How can you restrain knowledge (or in the case of Jesus, supposed omniscience) while still having it? That just doesn't make any sense. Either Jesus acted, when divine, to give up his power and properties, so that he didn't subsequently have them for a while, or he (or God: puzzling isn't it?) didn't so act, so that he still had them. Knowledge is not something anybody, including Jesus, can restrain, like the exercise of full strength; it's either there or it's not.
As regards Jesus' cry on the cross, I was interpreting it, provisionally, as something he truly said. You choose to interpret it as something Jesus consciously said it to let everyone know he was identifying with the Suffering Servant. I now think that--given the OT parallel you point out and of which I was previously unaware--the statement is most probably a post-hoc interpolation by a community of earlier believers to make the story fit nicely. As with anything in the Bible, you can't never be sure of its historical veracity.
Nonetheless, if either your interpretation, or my new one, is correct, then the passage doesn't bear on the state of Jesus's knowledge. Fair enough. However, as you concede, and as Checkbaiter has documented at length, there are many other passages that do bear on Jesus's inferior knowledge. So, the essential problem remains.
By the way, was Jesus aware that God hasn't really abandoned him or not, when he made the symbolic reference you allege?
26 Nov 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterNow you just said that in the beginning GOD had a plan in his Mind.
In the beginning was the logos, (the plan that God had from the beginning in His mind) and this plan was now manifest in the flesh in the person of His Son to carry it out further. If you had read my earlier post, this is covered in detail.🙂
Edit...see page 1 of this thread.
You ever had a plan in your mind. You work out all details in your mind, and that plan is apartof you is it not.Therefore you and your are one in your mind. Right?
You then said that this plan was made manifest in the flesh. In the person of HIS SON to carry it out futher.
Now you taken your plan from the planning of your mind. Now you begin to put your plan together in the hard copy. You are still one with you plan are you not? The hard copy of your plan is coming together from what you had in your mind. right?
This is what GOD did.
GOD in the person of GOD. With HIS SPIRIT, HIS Mind. Manifested HIS Plan JESUS CHRIST. Now would not GOD(Person), HIS SPIRIT(HOLYSPIRIT), (HIS Plan) JESUS CHRIST, would not this in all phases of HIS plan, would not this One Complete.
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26 Nov 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101No. ..I have a plan, part of that plan involves buying a car, so I buy one, then...................now, am I and the car one? I don't think so.
Now you just said that in the beginning GOD had a plan in his Mind.
You ever had a plan in your mind. You work out all details in your mind, and that plan is apartof you is it not.Therefore you and your are one in your mind. Right?
You then said that this plan was made manifest in the flesh. In the person of HIS SON to carry it out futher.
Now you t ...[text shortened]... (HIS Plan) JESUS CHRIST, would not this in all phases of HIS plan, would not this One Complete.
Jesus Christ is "begotten" of God. That means He had a beginning.
You are overlooking all that has been covered here already.
26 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterYour plan is to buy a car. Your plan is formulated in your head. You put in motion your plan to buy the car. The purchase of the car is the finished product of your plan.
No. ..I have a plan, part of that plan involves buying a car, so I buy one, then...................now, am I and the car one? I don't think so.
Jesus Christ is "begotten" of God. That means He had a beginning.
You are overlooking all that has been covered here already.
Your Plan(GOD), formulated in your head(HOLY SPIRIT), purchase the Car(JESUS CHRIST). In order to get to the completeness of the plan(car) in all phases of your plan, you are on withn your plan. The car is the completeness of your plan
JOHN 1:1-14 is the same thing GOD'S Plan, GOD'S SPIRIT, GOD'S WORD, Purchase of mankind JESUS CHRIST. Completeness in One Purpose.
26 Nov 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101Agreed
Your plan is to buy a car. Your plan is formulated in your head. You put in motion your plan to buy the car. The purchase of the car is the finished product of your plan.
Your Plan(GOD), formulated in your head(HOLY SPIRIT), purchase the Car(JESUS CHRIST). In order to get to the completeness of the plan(car) in all phases of your plan, you are on wi ...[text shortened]... Plan, GOD'S SPIRIT, GOD'S WORD, Purchase of mankind JESUS CHRIST. Completeness in One Purpose.
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26 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by blindfaith101Ok, I can accept that.That is, the one purpose. But my point is that just as I am not a car, niether is Jesus God....Look at these verses, it is a perfect forshadowing of Christ.
Your plan is to buy a car. Your plan is formulated in your head. You put in motion your plan to buy the car. The purchase of the car is the finished product of your plan.
Your Plan(GOD), formulated in your head(HOLY SPIRIT), purchase the Car(JESUS CHRIST). In order to get to the completeness of the plan(car) in all phases of your plan, you are on wi ...[text shortened]... Plan, GOD'S SPIRIT, GOD'S WORD, Purchase of mankind JESUS CHRIST. Completeness in One Purpose.
Gen 41:40-44
40 "You shall be over my house, and all my people shall be ruled according to your word; only in regard to the throne will I be greater than you."
41 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, "See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt."
42 Then Pharaoh took his signet ring off his hand and put it on Joseph's hand; and he clothed him in garments of fine linen and put a gold chain around his neck.
43 And he had him ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried out before him, "Bow the knee!" So he set him over all the land of Egypt.
44 Pharaoh also said to Joseph, "I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no man may lift his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt."
(NKJ)
God is God the Creator.....Jesus is His Son, God "created Him"....God is holy....
Ps 99:9
9 Exalt the LORD our God, and worship at His holy hill; for the LORD our God is holy.
(NKJ)
God is Spirit...
John 4:24
24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
(NKJ)
Therefor God is Holy Spirit....and He gives His people His "gift of holy spirit."
It is so simple. There is no trinity. But I understand, you have been indoctrinated with this traditional belief and that's ok. I can respect that. I have to admit I started this thread with the intention of debate. So if I mislead anyone, I apologize. I do have an open mind though, but your arguements are so weak. I have heard them so many times and they do not stand up to the word of God.
BTW...I have no problem with Trinitarians...it is a difficult thing to see that it is wrong teaching...it is uncomfortable...but you have to weigh scripture with scripture and much prayer is required to finally see the truth....what is interesting is that Trinitarians have a problem with me.
🙂
26 Nov 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterIn the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,abd the Word was God. JOHN 1:1
In the beginning was the logos, (the plan that God had from the beginning in His mind) and this plan was now manifest in the flesh in the person of His Son to carry it out further. If you had read my earlier post, this is covered in detail.🙂
Edit...see page 1 of this thread.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. REVELATION 16:13
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 JOHN 5:7
I am my father are one. JOHN 10:30
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. JOHN 17:5
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. JOHN 17:11
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; Believeth thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for my very works sake. JOHN 14: 9-11
Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. PHILIPPIANS 2:6
Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visble and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body,the church: who is the beginning, the first born from the dead; that in all things he night have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
COLLOSIANS 1:15-19
God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all theings, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. HEBREWS 1:1-3
But unto the Son he saith, thy hrone O God, is forever and ever: a Sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God. hath annointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of thine hands: HEBREWS 1:8-10
There are more Scriptures if you so need. But I hope this helps.
26 Nov 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterMy so called in doctrination is of THE WORD OF GOD. All answers to All questions are found in the WORD OF GOD. If you accept THE WORD OF GOD, then you should accept the answers found in THE WORD OF GOD. But as CHRIST said " or else believe for for the very works sake" JOHN 14:11.
Ok, I can accept that.That is, the one purpose. But my point is that just as I am not a car, niether is Jesus God....Look at these verses, it is a perfect forshadowing of Christ.
Gen 41:40-44
40 "You shall be over my house, and all my people shall be ruled according to your word;[b] only in regard to the throne will I be greater than you."
4 ...[text shortened]... lly see the truth....what is interesting is that Trinitarians have a problem with me.
🙂[/b]
Do you believe in the Works of JESUS CHRIST? If you do believe in HIS Works that in itself, solves your problem. And you cannot be a Lost Soul, because you believe in The Works of JESUS CHRIST.
If you or anyone else does not believe in The Works of JESUS CHRIST. Then they are lost. They are lost because they had a chance to hear and believe in the Works of JESUS CHRIST. But they denied HIM and HIS Power.
It has just now hit me to ask you, Do You understand what a Lost Soul is?
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26 Nov 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101If you want the truth to each one of the verses you mention and many more that you have not mentioned go here:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,abd the Word was God. JOHN 1:1
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. REVELATION 16:13
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 JOHN 5:7
I am my father are one ...[text shortened]... ands: HEBREWS 1:8-10
There are more Scriptures if you so need. But I hope this helps.
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=109
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26 Nov 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101A lost soul? I suppose someone not born again.
My so called in doctrination is of THE WORD OF GOD. All answers to All questions are found in the WORD OF GOD. If you accept THE WORD OF GOD, then you should accept the answers found in THE WORD OF GOD. But as CHRIST said " or else believe for for the very works sake" JOHN 14:11.
Do you believe in the Works of JESUS CHRIST? If you do believe in HIS ...[text shortened]... ed HIM and HIS Power.
It has just now hit me to ask you, Do You understand what a Lost Soul is?
Romans 10:9,10