The Way of Righteousness.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Cut to the chase, what exactly am I missing, I have read Romans.

Sir, you either have the memory of a goldfish or the intellect of a halibut.

Best I think if 'you' explain how you interpret those verses.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Sir, you either have the memory of a goldfish or the intellect of a halibut.

Best I think if 'you' explain how you interpret those verses.

So instead of pointing out what I am supposedly missing based on your interpretation of those verses, you dodge the question and use some lame insults. Very mature of the ghost.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So instead of pointing out what I am supposedly missing based on your interpretation of those verses, you dodge the question and use some lame insults. Very mature of the ghost.

I have already explained those verses to you at least twice. Honestly, why do you need them explained to you again?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So instead of pointing out what I am supposedly missing based on your interpretation of those verses, you dodge the question and use some lame insults. Very mature of the ghost.

Here it is, your favorite Apostle, Paul himself:

[God] will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another😉 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Romans 2:6-16 KJV)

Let me summarise the main points of Paul :

1. God will judge every man according to his works - those who do continue in good works will get eternal life, while those who disobey and follow an evil, unrighteous life will suffer.
2. God does not respect the person ie title / position of men. Those who sin will be judged and punished those who do good works will be glorified
3. Even Gentiles without Law and who live righteously with their conscience as their guide, they too will be judged and rewarded.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I have already explained those verses to you at least twice. Honestly, why do you need them explained to you again?

And I have already explained to you that having a conscience doesn't mean you are saved.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
And I have already explained to you that having a conscience doesn't mean you are saved.

I have already explained to you that you saying that you are saved, does not mean you get into the Kingdom of God.

All of mankind is saved by the blood of Christ. ALL ... ALL from Adam to the end of time. BUT that is not all that is required. Christ death paid the price for sin in the flesh brought on by Adam. However there is work to be done and a life of righteousness to be lived.

If you read the opening post again you will see that Paul and Peter are saying that there are some Christians who have fallen away, have turned to evil and unrighteousness and who continue in sin and who sin wilfully etc etc and have gone back to their vomit and worldly lifestyle. These will not get into the Kingdom of God ... as is clearly stated.

So there is a great big hole in your doctrine.

Jesus and all the Apostles have stated the very same thing pertaining to who enters the Kingdom of God.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Lets try again. Tell me what you want to know about the opening post. I will clear it up. I really do not understand what the problem is.

Well... there is no problem, at least not on this end.

I appreciate the effort and wanting to reengage, but as I said a few posts back to 'FMF', "the discussion has grown old and I really don't care anymore", there is very little fruit in the interchanges. If you want to know what I was asking? My initial comment is on page 1 and continues on page 4... smatterings from there.

You are not a fan of repeating yourself, neither am I.

Originally posted by leunammi
Well... there is no problem, at least not on this end.

I appreciate the effort and wanting to reengage, but as I said a few posts back to 'FMF', "the discussion has grown old and I really don't care anymore", there is very little fruit in the interchanges. If you want to know what I was asking? My initial comment is on page 1 and continues on page 4... smatterings from there.

You are not a fan of repeating yourself, neither am I.

Well good luck then. I notice you said earlier that I gave you something to think about and that is how a new life in Christ starts. I was indoctrinated into a small Christian sect that had some weird beliefs. It is only in my teenage years while reading the Bible I noticed that Jesus says one thing and the religion says the opposite. It took about 10 years to leave them, and the cost was high in terms of parents and siblings sidelining me and lost relationships but the benefits are immense ... I was able to remove those foolish / false doctrines from my head, and truly appreciate the teachings of Christ .. which is the only road to eternal life... there is no other.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
And I have already explained to you that having a conscience doesn't mean you are saved.

Not only does the Roman verses concerned 'not' say that, neither have I. (For all of us, it's what you do with that conscience that matters). Look again,really look:

'For when the Gentiles (unbelievers) which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law,(live righteously) these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves (self governing by acting according to God's law) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.' (Unbelievers will also be judged on their actions which will dictate whether or not they are saved - excused).

Sheesh dude, it's your religious book not mine. Why are you denying what is right there in front of you, in a book central to your faith?

* Comments in brackets are my own.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well good luck then. I notice you said earlier that I gave you something to think about and that is how a new life in Christ starts. I was indoctrinated into a small Christian sect that had some weird beliefs. It is only in my teenage years while reading the Bible I noticed that Jesus says one thing and the religion says the opposite. It took about 10 yea ...[text shortened]... preciate the teachings of Christ .. which is the only road to eternal life... there is no other.

Raj, When I said you give me things to think about...you do. I have been a Christian for over 30 years. I admire your tenacity with regard to the scriptures and the importance that you place on them... especially where the teachings of Jesus are concerned. I also believe that Jesus teachings, commandments and words are paramount to walking out the Christian faith, something I have difficulty with each and every day, thank God for his Grace.

This forum and what Christians say back and forth remind me of how misunderstandings can happen where beliefs are concerned. Thoughts, ideas and revelations of those other than ourselves can get lost in translation; in the real world these misunderstandings get cleared up by asking questions (thus my question to you earlier in this OP). I believe in some respects it is communication or the lack thereof and/or the unwillingness to hear what others have to say when it bumps up against what we know to be true. Maybe it is nothing more simple than the inability to communicate, I don't know.

I don't believe any one man has it figured out, my belief is God is so much larger than our infinitesimal minds to think otherwise is just foolish. Many Christians (and non-Christians), from what I have seen in this forum bring something to the table (for the most part) as do you, and hopefully if we listen to each other... perhaps we can pick up something in the way of understanding... something about God that had been missing before or a deeper understanding, who knows. To dismiss anyone because their belief's or doctrine do not line up with our own (or our interpretation of the scriptures and how we think they should line up) because of a word, idea or understanding that was communicated is like 'throwing the baby out with the bath water'. For me, I tend to be black and white and have to fight the baby and bath water analogy and allow differing opinions to rise to the surface. It does not mean I drink the cool-aid and accept everything that is being said, I can allow and ask questions if I need clarification on a thing and process... thus my earlier question to you. I allow and if a word does not correlate to what I believe and line up with scripture and what I believe to be true... I toss it out and don't accept it and that is not a big deal because we do it everyday. You run it through the filters!

Thank you for the bit of personal information that you shared, your decision and resulting consequences is and has no doubt been difficult.

Originally posted by leunammi
Raj, When I said you give me things to think about...you do. I have been a Christian for over 30 years. I admire your tenacity with regard to the scriptures and the importance that you place on them... especially where the teachings of Jesus are concerned. I also believe that Jesus teachings, commandments and words are paramount to walking out the Christ ...[text shortened]... on that you shared, your decision and resulting consequences is and has no doubt been difficult.

Thanks for your comments. You said I don't believe any one man has it figured out,, and while I agree up to a point when it comes to the Bible in general, Jesus has it figured out regarding eternal life and He was clear how he is going to judge people. In Matt 5, 6 and 7, the longest lecture given to many thousands, Jesus never once said anything about having faith or to believe in Him. Any Christian with a curious brain would want to understand why.

For me, faith is a means to an end. It is the engine that should push the Christian in the right direction along the path of righteousness and good works and ending in eternal life. Faith that does not lead to this process is dead faith which ends in damnation. This is the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

For many Christians, faith is the end. These Christians claim to be saved and to have eternal life already. Not even God, they claim, can deny them entry into the Kingdom. In support of this doctrine they make statements like:
- Jesus died for all my sins so I do not have to account for them
- nobody is saved by works but by faith
- nobody is righteous all are like filthy rags
- following the commandments of Christ is legalistic and Pharisaical.
- Jesus is righteous therefore I am righteous

Hence topics like this thread.

I am still willing to discuss your comments pertaining to the opening post if you care to post them.

Originally posted by Rajk999
It appears that some Christians have abdicated their position as sons of God, by ignoring the call to righteousness and condoning a life of sin. The warnings against this course of action are serious

[i]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, ...[text shortened]... ut committing sin
- righteousness is not necessary.

Where to they get these doctrines from?

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (2 Peter 2:20-22 KJV)

What is important to understand is who Peter was talking about in these passages. If we draw back the lens and read 2 Peter 2:20-22 in context and read it as 2 Peter 2, a different conclusion can be drawn. As I read it, Peter is not talking about individual Christians but he is talking about false teachers and false prophets and those who would lead others astray.

2 Peter 2
False Prophets and Teachers
English Standard Version

2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.

Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, 11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, 13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you. 14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! 15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, 16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

The Apostle Paul makes similar warnings:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:26-29 KJV)

Again, context is everything,

... continued because of truncation

Originally posted by Rajk999
It appears that some Christians have abdicated their position as sons of God, by ignoring the call to righteousness and condoning a life of sin. The warnings against this course of action are serious

[i]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, ...[text shortened]... ut committing sin
- righteousness is not necessary.

Where to they get these doctrines from?

...continued part 2

Hebrews 10
Christ's Sacrifice Once For All
English Standard Version

10 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”
8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16
“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
The Full Assurance of Faith

19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, 33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. 34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. 35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. 37 For,

“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;
38
but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

I don't condone sinning, quite the opposite as Christian's we need to turn from sins. I am not interested in pointing out what others have done (sin) because of the log in my own eyes. As I read Hebrews, what stands out in these passages is especially vs. 29

29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

This seems to me to be the sin against the Holy Spirit which the scriptures say will not be forgiven and according to scripture is the only one.

Two terrible warnings by Peter and Paul [and there are several more]. But yet you will hear Christians claim:
- they are eternally saved
- non Christians will be tormented forever
- Christians cannot live without committing sin
- righteousness is not necessary.

You suggest by the OP that Christians in this forum are going to fall under the warnings of Peter and Paul (where is Mary?), if I interpret correctly. Am I right?

Do you really believe that Christians who believe 'they are eternally saved' are doomed to destruction?
Do you really believe that Christians who believe 'non-Christians will be tormented forever' are doomed to destruction? More importantly, is this belief even a sin or an unforgivable sin?
Do you really believe that if someone believes 'Christians cannot live without sinning' is a damnable offense?

How many Christian in this forum have...

"trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace"

Have any? Thank God for his Grace.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have already explained to you that you saying that you are saved, does not mean you get into the Kingdom of God.

All of mankind is saved by the blood of Christ. ALL ... ALL from Adam to the end of time. BUT that is not all that is required. Christ death paid the price for sin in the flesh brought on by Adam. However there is work to be done and a life ...[text shortened]... nd all the Apostles have stated the very same thing pertaining to who enters the Kingdom of God.

Sorry you must be confusing me with an imaginary person that said, "saying I'm saved gets me into Heaven." When exactly did I say that?

You say there is a hole in my doctrine, when I haven't even stated what I believe. All I have been asking is how exactly an atheist gets into Heaven, since that is what you claimed. But you keep dodging my questions. As always.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Sorry you must be confusing me with an imaginary person that said, "saying I'm saved gets me into Heaven." When exactly did I say that?

You say there is a hole in my doctrine, when I haven't even stated what I believe. All I have been asking is how exactly an atheist gets into Heaven, since that is what you claimed. But you keep dodging my questions. As always.

Someone with NO LAW are a LAW UNTO THEMSELVES,

Atheists are an example of a person with NO LAW.

Is English your second language?