02 Apr 19
@sonship saidWho here, in this community, is "ready" for you? Whose estimation of Witness Lee makes them "ready" for you to choose to discuss him with them?
I could choose just to leave you with your estimation of the things said being foolishness. Maybe you're not ready, having never repented of your separating sins, offenses, trangressions which cover the conscience with blackened soot so that God is not real to you at all.
@sonship saidHow exactly does the "Spirit" communicate with you with regard to when and what to post? Is there some kind of voice or instruction or do you simply declare whatever you end up choosing to post to be the "Spirit" working through you?
Start by asking. And I'll see of the Spirit would have me oblige you or whether you're just bating me for more Christ REJECTION.
@sonship saidNowhere did Paul write such foolishness.
Folks there's nothing much new under the sun.
There were believers in Corinth who thought Paul's letters said things which made no sense to them. They were very philosophical people some of them. But they lacked experience in spiritual growth.
Paul had to remind them that the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men.
"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (1 Cor. 1:25)
02 Apr 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidOf course! Black or blue?
20 million pounds seems a little steep. Do I at least get a complimentary pen?
... forget it ... for 20 million I'll give you both.
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03 Apr 19
@sonship saidNo worries sonship. Am perfectly happy to have the craziness of Witness Lee's quotes (on the first page) go unchallenged and for them to remain hanging in their full absurdity.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Great.
Tomorrow I will take you through them and you can argue against the dumbness.
Not so fast. First you better ASK me if I want to with you.
I could choose just to leave you with your estimation of the things said being foolishness. Maybe you're not ready, having never repented of your separating sins, offenses, tra ...[text shortened]... e of the Spirit would have me oblige you or whether you're just bating me for more Christ REJECTION.
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No worries sonship. Am perfectly happy to have the craziness of Witness Lee's quotes (on the first page) go unchallenged and for them to remain hanging in their full absurdity.
In the mean time Witness Lee's ministry has produced a thousand local churches around the globe on every continent save Antarctica, with his "absurd" way of ministering the Scriptures. And though he went to be with the Lord in the late 90s they are still flourishing and increasing by repeaters of his example and teaching.
Okay, for the sake of some reading along I'll field a couple of challenges today. For their sake I'll examine a couple.
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@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Ghost mocks this paragraph.
"...these five loaves were barley loaves. Barley is a type of the resurrected Christ (Leviticus 23:10). Thus, the barley loaves signify Christ in resurrection as food to us. Loaves are of the vegetable life, signifying the generating aspect of Christ's life, whereas fish are of the animal life, signifying the redeeming aspect of Christ's life."
There was a series of ground breaking messages Witness Lee gave in Los Angelos California in the 60s on the Land of Canaan. They were collected into a book called The All-inclusive Christ.
To the amazement of many Christians of theological education Lee expounded parts of the book of Deuteronomy on the Good Land of Canaan showing that the entire land with all of its riches was a type of Christ.
Lee allogerized the land flowing with milk and honey in every aspect to portray to Christians the Jesus Christ Himself was the promise land in the New Testament. Christ in all of His all-inclusiveness was everything Christians need to build the church the and have the kingdom of God on the all-inclusive Christ.
Previous to this many of us thought the good land of Canaan was a symbol for Heaven. We thought crossing Jordan to enter into the Promise Land had something to do with dying and going to Heaven as many songs, hymns and spirituals of old imply.
Lee virtually astounded his audience by explaining that the fight for the Good Land was a allegory for the fighting of the old man in order to live in the All-inclusive Christ Who is and has everything God's people need to enter into the enjoyment of the new testament salvation.
He allegorized and gave his reasons for teaching that all the items mentioned were aspects of Who Christ is and what He has done and does - the size of the land, the streams, the valleys, the vegetable life, the fruit, the stones of iron, all these things Witness Lee used to show how "all-inclusive" Christ is.
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Continuing about the Wheat and Barley.
This is a brief word. No single Internet post is in any way going to do justice to those exceedingly helpful messages. But reading the book The All-inclusive Christ would help you.
One may have a concept that Lee's manner of allegorizing was a stretch in one or more than one way. But I personally have been surprised how consistent throughout the Bible many of those allegories seem to hold.
I think the man was speaking from revelation. That some would mock, is of no surprise to me.
Cautionary note: No one is insisting that such allegorization of items mentioned in connection with Canaan was ONLY done or FIRST done or EXCLUSIVELY done by Witness Lee. That is not the case being made by anyone I know.
Excerpt from The All-inclusive Christ by Witness Lee
THE EXPERIENCE OF WHEAT
It is not my object just to give some doctrinal teaching. My burden is not for that. What I am driving at is the experience of wheat and the experience of barley. Let us consider the experience of wheat. Brothers and sisters, whenever you are put into a situation by the Lord's sovereignty in which you are limited, in which you are pressed, you may experience the Lord as wheat. When in the midst of that limiting and pressing situation you contact the Lord, He is just as a grain of wheat to you. Immediately upon contacting Him, you can be completely satisfied with your situation and your limitation. That life which is Christ Himself within you is a grain of wheat. It is the life of the little carpenter, the incarnated One, the limited One. When you are in a certain environment in which you are restricted and suppressed, if you have a living touch with Christ, you will say, “O Lord, You are the infinite God, but You did become a finite man. There is power in You to suffer any kind of limitation.” You will experience Christ as the wheat.
THE EXPERIENCE OF
BARLEY
But is this the end? No. Praise the Lord, following the wheat is the barley. The tomb was not the end of the Lord. He was resurrected. Barley followed the wheat. Wheat is the valley of death, but barley is the mountain of resurrection. Whenever you experience Christ as the wheat, be assured that an experience of Christ as the barley will follow.
Actually, in order to experience Christ as the grain of wheat, the limited Jesus, we must apply Him as the barley, as the resurrected Christ. It is the resurrected Christ who is living in us. This resurrected Christ possesses a life that has passed through incarnation, crucifixion, and burial, but He Himself today is the resurrected One. Christ in the flesh is always limited, but Christ in resurrection is unlimited and released. It is this unlimited Christ living in us that causes us to follow the limited Jesus. Today we are following the limited Jesus, but we do it in the power of the unlimited Christ. The unlimited Christ living within us is our enablement.
The All-inclusive Christ, Witness Lee, LSM, see
https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2A0F1E440150
@sonship saidI seem to have missed your point about what way are these allegories exceedingly helpful. Let me tell you, that is is what idolatry is about and it is condemned in the bible. The same way the bible condemns likening God and Christ to animals and to the sun, moon and starts [which are just part of the creation], attempting to draw parallels between Christ and barley and other food items is childish and unnecessary. It is a practice that is condemned.
Continuing about the Wheat and Barley.
This is a brief word. No single Internet post is in any way going to do justice to those exceedingly helpful messages. But reading the book The All-inclusive Christ would help you.
One may have a concept that Lee's manner of allegorizing was a stretch in one or more than one way. But I personally have been surprised how c ...[text shortened]... rist[/b], Witness Lee, LSM, see
https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2A0F1E440150
If this were something that was condoned by God then the Apostles would have done it. They did not and for good reason. It detracts from a proper understanding of God and Christ. Your doctrine based on these men who you apparently worship is false and your faith is in vain.
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03 Apr 19
@sonship saidSo, comparable to Jehovah Witnesses. Is that what you're telling me?
In the mean time Witness Lee's ministry has produced a thousand local churches around the globe on every continent save Antarctica, with his "absurd" way of ministering the Scriptures. And though he went to be with the Lord in the late 90s they are still flourishing and increasing by repeaters of his example and teaching.
Okay, for the sake of some reading along I'll field a couple of challenges today. For their sake I'll examine a couple.
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03 Apr 19
@sonship
Maybe you'll do better explaining the daft numerological insight of:
"The unique Creator, God, is triune, signified by the number three. Since the creation is represented before God by four living creatures (Revelation 4:6-9), the number four signifies creatures, especially man. Hence, three plus four means that God is added to the created man, and thus His purpose is being accomplished. The church is not only the creature, but the creature with the Creator as the Triune God dispensed into her. She is the real number seven: the real three, the Triune God, added to the real four, created man. Therefore the number seven denotes completion in God’s move, first in the old creation and then in the new creation, the church."
(The Recovery Version: Footnotes of Revelation)
03 Apr 19
@sonship saidCharles Taze Russell has a current membership of over 8,500,000 Jehovahs Witnesses.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
In the mean time Witness Lee's ministry has produced a thousand local churches around the globe on every continent save Antarctica, with his "absurd" way of ministering the Scriptures. And though he went to be with the Lord in the late 90s they are still flourishing and increasing by repeaters of his example and teaching.
So much for size being evidence of truth.
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03 Apr 19
I seem to have missed your point about what way are these allegories exceedingly helpful.
They may not be helpful to everyone. However, what is taught by means of symbolism or allegory is accompanied by plain words. It is just that a picture is worth many words.
Even if plain teaching of Christ being the thriving One in limitation or Christ having the resurrection life may not be useful to the fleshy, natural man who doesn't contact Christ or live in the realm of the Spirit of Christ.
Any number of vocal atheists would loudly protest that any teaching about God or the Son of God is not "helpful".
Let me tell you, that is is what idolatry is about and it is condemned in the bible.
The discussion here has nothing to do with idolatry.
The discussion is about "Is there wisdom in some of the things found in what one Witness Lee spoke."
The mention of wheat and barley having to do with Jesus is suspicious to the atheist Ghost as foolishness.
Witness Lee taught that Christ is the central Person in the whole Bible. And that the Good Land of Canaan, the Promised Land, was too an allegory of Christ WITH all of its riches, natural resources, benefits, and supply.
Now we do know that the Apostle Paul wrote that so many things of the Old Testament were written for lessons and examples to the new testament believers.
"Now these things occurred as examples to us, ..." (1 Cor. 10:6a)
"Now thee things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our admonition, unto whom the ends of the ages have come." (v.11)
We believe what was written about the riches of the Good Land and the land itself, in addition to being history, serves also to be spiritual lessons to the new covenant believers concerning salvation in Jesus Christ.
03 Apr 19
@sonship saidTalking of the "wisdom" of things found in what Witness Lee said, are Protestantism, Catholicism, and Judaism "Satan's" organizations, in your view?
The discussion here has nothing to do with idolatry.
The discussion is about "Is there wisdom in some of the things found in what one Witness Lee spoke."
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03 Apr 19
3 edits
Cont. with Rajk999
The same way the bible condemns likening God and Christ to animals
God Himself uses symbols of animals and other things to speak of Himself in His word.
An Eagle with eagle's wings,
A Fountain of living water,
A Rock,
A strong high tower,
A shield and buckler,
A soldier,
A lover,
A Mother,
A Husband,
A Father,
A Sun
And in the New Testament Christ is likened to a Lamb, Good Shepherd, a Body with members, Greek letters of the alphabet - Alpha, Omega (implying all the other letters in-between).
Christ is seen as Bread from heaven, rivers if living water, Morning Star, and the Rock that followed the Old Testament saints -
First Corinthians 10:4
And all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of a spiritual rock which followed them, and the rock was Christ.
In other words the rock from which water came out to supply drink to the Hebrews in the wilderness was a spiritual symbol of the Christ to come. Christ was that spiritual rock that followed them.
This has nothing to do with idolatry in teaching Christ is allegorically depicted throughout the Old Testament.
and the sun, moon and starts [which are just part of the creation],
All things positive things in the universe point to God, the ultimate reality behind all positive things. For example Christ in Malachi's prophesy will be the Sun of Righteousness with healing in His wings.
Malachi 4:2
"But unto you who fear My name will the sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings, and you will go forth and leap about like well-fed calves."