There is NO GOD - simple as

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“...No, we have science based measurements. We have no proof. ...”

if a measurement shows that something is millions years old leaving no reasonable/valid doubt and with no evidence to the contrary (no evidence must be ignored) then how is that not proof.

That surely depends on what you mean by proof. Do you mean "proof" as a lawyer would mean by proof, or proof as a logician / mathematician would mean by "proof"?
As I argued with josephw; we cannot prove, in a logical sense, that all the times gravity has been shown to behave in the manner we expect aren't just special, fluky, cases of some other phenomenon that could manifest in our next measurement.

We have persuasive evidence of course - damned persuasive evidence, and it would be crazy to argue against it; but that aside, we don't actually have a formal, logical, and irrefutable proof of this. It is this sort of proof that "God" doesn't exist that fundies are demanding of us atheists before our positions are reasonable to them. - unfortunately!

Originally posted by Agerg
That surely depends on what you mean by proof. Do you mean "proof" as a lawyer would mean by proof, or proof as a logician or mathematician would mean by "proof"?
As I argued with josephw; we cannot prove, in a logical sense, that all the times gravity has been shown to behave in the manner we expect aren't just special, fluky, cases of some other phenomenon demanding of us atheists before our positions are reasonable to them. - unfortunately!

“....That surely depends on what you mean by proof. Do you mean "proof" as a lawyer would mean by proof, or proof as a logician or mathematician would mean by "proof"? ...”

it is often a mixture of the two and I would say it is a bit of both in this case for a lot of mathematical reasoning is used behind the physics of it.

if what you ask is is it absolute logical proof then it isn't that because there is no LOGICAL contradiction that we could be brains in a nutrient tank and all this world we see is just nonsense and nothing like the real world.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“...Please prove your great great great great great grandfather. ...”

he doesn't have to. There is overwhelming credible EVIDENCE that every human has a father ( basic biological facts ) and therefore the above can be deduced from that fact i.e. the fact that every human has a father logically means that every human has a great great great great g ...[text shortened]... randfather.

In contrast, there is no credible evidence that there is a tooth fairy or a god.

The same argument goes for Jesus Andrew. There is enough prove that Jesus is the Son of God, you're just not reading the right books on that subject and without passing any critics, your mind possibly is not open enough to look at it from another angle hence the reason you don't see credible evidence but I do.

I also once lived like there is no God. Now it is impossible for me to live without God. From my point of view, I just can not believe that people believe there is no God, as God has left His mark everywhere but some are to blind to see it. How can anything have existed without God being there to start it all? Some evolutionists will have a lot to say but this is something I categorize in the tooth fairy section. I do believe in evolution in science but not as the reason that humans and the universes are here.

In this case, if he doesn't have to provide me prove of his great great great great great grandfather, the same basic biological facts will still have been the same irrespective of time and age. Now, after 2000 years there are hundreds of books of a person called Jesus and what He has done and where He came from. Do you think there will be any prove of his great great great great great grandfather even now? I bet if he has done something remarkable it would have been recorded right? How many remarkable things have Jesus done so that so many people have recorded this.

Originally posted by josephw
In all the world have you ever heard of how you can have eternal life except by believing in Jesus?

Islam.

Buddhism.

Hinduism - but in what form is a matter of some concern!

Alternatively, you can't have eternal life - it is nonsensical and undesirable in any event.

Originally posted by finnegan
Islam.

Buddhism.

Hinduism - but in what form is a matter of some concern!

Alternatively, you can't have eternal life - it is nonsensical and undesirable in any event.

The idea of living as a physical entity for eternity is about as hellish an idea as I could imagine.

I believe that the eternal life that scriptures and other religous texts refer to is not living forever in this physical body, thats crazy.

In my view, which is a reinterpretation of bhuddism,hinduism and some other enlightened persons, the "eternal life" that is awaiting , (those through their own efforts), has no comparison to anything that any unenlightened person could imagine.
We must take a holistic, humble approach to spirituality, and come to some universal truths, which are like a "doorway" to eternal life.
No matter what you and I think, the universal doorway is the same for everbody.
It does not require belief of any sort for it to exist.
Through the course of my spiritual research, I have come to this conclusion.

edit: Of course I could go on , but I will await a response to see what direction, if any, these words would lead you or any other reader to.

Originally posted by mikelom
cheese exists and faries don't!

I cannot comprehend the illogic of a book proving that there was a son of man, the ultimate being.

Prove this man to me, and I will believe in faries too!

Please let me see what you see.

-m.

The first hurdle in proving something like this is in the students attitude. If one could prove that God exists, would that make you happy or sad (simplistic but important)?

The second question is this: do you want to believe in God? or do you want to believe that there isn't? This is a little more complicated. Direct proof is not possible, so if you really don't want God to exist, then no amount of circumstantial evidence or argumentation will persuade you. Only a direct revelation from the creator himself would do, and no one gets that treatment...least of all an athiest.

If however you want God to exist then any reasonble explanation will do. Ontological arguments will persuade you as will Prima Causa. The desire to know, experience or believe in a supreme being makes the evidence easier to accept.

Third, there is no illogic in the bible, it is a collection of sacred stories; they are not meant to convey logic but rather the illogical condition of the human spirit. Look at the ancient writings regarding the buddha. they are steeped with superstition and the supernatural, yet you do not find them illogical. Your prejudice shows through here.

Originally posted by Doward
The first hurdle in proving something like this is in the students attitude. If one could prove that God exists, would that make you happy or sad (simplistic but important)?

The second question is this: do you want to believe in God? or do you want to believe that there isn't? This is a little more complicated. Direct proof is not possible, so if you reall n and the supernatural, yet you do not find them illogical. Your prejudice shows through here.

Only a direct revelation from the creator himself would do, and no one gets that treatment...least of all an athiest.
Yes...I can see how that would inconvenience an omnipotent,Reveal Hidden Contentand omniscientReveal Hidden ContentGod that wants us all to believe in it!

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]Only a direct revelation from the creator himself would do, and no one gets that treatment...least of all an athiest.
Yes...I can see how that would inconvenience an omnipotent,[hidden](can do anything *logically* possible)[/hidden]and omniscient[hidden]such that it would know what is required to change the conviction of an atheist[/hidden]God that wants us all to believe in it![/b]

why then it wouldn't be faith it would be knowledge, and knowledge doesn't move mountains, faith does

Originally posted by rwingett
I make my own cheese. I curdle the milk, drain off the whey, press the curds and thereby bring a new cheese to life. To those cheeses, I am a living god.

What made you do all these things ? You may of course reply that it was on a whim or a hobby or a chore to be done or for any other reason. Go back and let us know what actually was the prime mover for your thoughts and actions. Will to live? What caused this will to come about? Your evolution ? What might be the cause for that ? What caused the first life to exist ? What caused the necessary chemicals to react ? I think you will realise who is God, you or someone else ?

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
What made you do all these things ? You may of course reply that it was on a whim or a hobby or a chore to be done or for any other reason. Go back and let us know what actually was the prime mover for your thoughts and actions. Will to live? What caused this will to come about? Your evolution ? What might be the cause for that ? What caused the first lif ...[text shortened]... ed the necessary chemicals to react ? I think you will realise who is God, you or someone else ?

You may have discovered rwingett's problem. He thinks he
is a god.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You may have discovered rwingett's problem. He thinks he
is a god.

It is the ego of a person which comes in the way of realisation of God. Had he said that he realises that God has permeated everything incl.himself, that would would have been all right but the present sentence is egoistic.

Originally posted by mikelom
cheese exists and faries don't!

I cannot comprehend the illogic of a book proving that there was a son of man, the ultimate being.

Prove this man to me, and I will believe in faries too!

Please let me see what you see.

-m.

Even the principal non-believer Dawkins is not sure about the non-existence of God. He has titled the relevant chapter in his book ' the god delusion' as 'why there almost certainly is no God.'

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Even the principal non-believer Dawkins is not sure about the non-existence of God. He has titled the relevant chapter in his book ' the god delusion' as 'why there almost certainly is no God.'

No, I think you'll find he's very sure...we atheists or anyone/thing else simply lack the facility to disprove the unfalsifiable - and so for the sake of integrity, the most we can say is "[there] almost certainly is no God".

Going by your thinking, none of us are sure about the non-existence of tooth fairies. We can't outright disprove them neither.

Originally posted by Agerg
No, I think you'll find he's very sure...we atheists or anyone/thing else simply lack the facility to disprove the unfalsifiable - and so for the sake of integrity, the most we can say is "[there] almost certainly is no God".

Going by your thinking, none of us are sure about the non-existence of tooth fairies. We can't outright disprove them neither.

so the next question is would you be disapointed if there were a God?

Originally posted by Doward
so the next question is would you be disapointed if there were a God?

From an emotional perspective I'm no less indifferent to the hypothetical scenario you capitalised "G" "God" exists than the scenario the tooth fairy exists.

Would you be disappointed if supposing you could actually soar like an eagle, you could only do such a thing between 18:00-19:52?