Thoughts and prayers

Originally posted by rwingett
If god is incapable of being envisioned, then what basis do you have for supposing that he/it even exists?

God/Ultimate Reality/Brahman- whatever name you give it- has been experienced by saints/mystics and devotees from times immemorial across religions and cultures.
This experience is said to have come not from our usual external senses or mind.Many describe an opening of the third eye which enabled them to see/ realize God.Many say that this experience was a merger with the God which changed their Life forever.Eternal ecstasy and peace has been showered upon them from that point onwards.
It is our soul that experiences God directly. Direct experience is the proof. And I believe in these Saints.
But to a common person like me,I find overwhelming evidence of God in the entirety of Universe whether it is in Love and understanding, in a kid's smile or a flower,or rainbow or the dazzling night sky or the intricate structure of atoms and then of molecules and then of crystals etc.Take your pick. I do hope and pray that God and I come face to face in a more direct way.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
From what I can tell, RW's post was arguing against the conception that God is omnipotent AND omiscient AND omnibenevolent rather than an attempt to "disprove the existence of God."

Also, you seem to be arguing that while "many cruelties and injustices" have been done in the "name of Religion" many "good" things have also occured. There are problems w ...[text shortened]... hey would have,had they not believed in God."
Is self-serving truly "good"?

I am amazed about your say that enrichment in one's life which will certainly come about due to one's belief in God is self serving. You also classify as "self serving " the courage and tenacity shown by suffering humanity everywhere in tacklng their miseries successfully because of their belief in God. What do you want us believers to do ? Buy more copies of Dawkins's books and make him richer ? Will that make us more virtuous in your eyes ?By the way,I thought I had clarified that attacking the primitive conception of God as omniscient et al was equally primitive. In my view God is beyond description and conception. He/She/It is to be experienced.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I am amazed about your say that enrichment in one's life which will certainly come about due to one's belief in God is self serving. You also classify as "self serving " the courage and tenacity shown by suffering humanity everywhere in tacklng their miseries successfully because of their belief in God. What do you want us believers to do ? Buy more copie ...[text shortened]... itive. In my view God is beyond description and conception. He/She/It is to be experienced.

Curious that you're amazed that SELF-enrichment and overcoming SELF-miseries are SELF-serving.

Curious that you consider "attacking the primitive conception of God as omniscient et al was equally primitive". Having belief in an OOO God in a world such as this is not rational. It is delusion. What is primitive is believing one should not speak against irrationality. What is primitive is believing one should not speak againt delusion.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I say that I have full compassion for all victims of religious strife. Countless people all over the world have been killed in the name of Religion esp. Organised Religion. It is an enormous tragedy. But how does that disprove the existence of God ?

It at least disproves the primitive notion that such a god would be bestowed with all of the 3 omnis: omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent. It's just a shame, and a source of bewilderment, many theists can't see why this is the case.

Originally posted by rwingett
Why didn't god prevent the earthquake? If god is all-loving, then why are there earthquakes at all?

This is a legitimate question. I can attempt to answer, but alas I fear that without some semblance (even the merest shred) of faith, the answer will not suffice for you. Yet in the face of that uphill and insurmountable battle I will endeavor to minimally give a partial answer (I would need a book to give my complete answer).

As human beings we share a unique attribute that no other species on the planet has: the ability to imagine a reality other than the one that exists. Scientists used to think that it was language, and the ability to use tools that separated us, but that has since been proven false. Apes and otters clearly use tools, and whales, dolphins and many other species have rudimentary language and communication abilities.

This ability to imagine alternate reality is both a blessing and a curse. It is useful in the area’s of science and invention, of social justice and of course literature etc. however, when things go south in our lives, we imagine an alternate reality where perhaps our mother didn’t die when we were 6, or that our little sister didn’t die in a tornado etc.

This brings us to question the fairness of the world, and if indeed there is any order, pattern or design within it. If we are raised with the notion that there is a supreme being, we may begin to question why such a being could allow such terrible things to happen. In our grief we doubt the benevolence of God. It is perfectly natural to grieve, even animals do. Yet it is only humans that strike out at the world in rage and frustration over their grief. I believe we do this because of our ability to imagine a different reality.

So if God is supremely benevolent, and supremely powerful, then God could choose to stop or eliminate all sorts of natural disasters. If He or She could, then why doesn’t S/He? I suppose I could take a scientific route and say that God created the world perfectly. If one were to take the long view (instead of focusing on the immediate) then this is could indeed be a true statement. Human beings live only a short period of time in relation to the age of the planet. As we evolve and develop, so does the planet, one might say that we are still in the midst of the creation, that it is not yet finished.

Pundits might say that the Genesis account and other sacred writings state that God wrapped it up in six days and it’s over. I again prefer to take the long view, that God has set in motion His creation, and when it is finished it will be perfect.

Another perspective on this is one that I offer to my Christian brothers and sisters for their consideration. If Adam and Eve had never left the garden, what would the world have been like? Would there have been a need to lift the human spirit with song or works of art? Would great works of literature even exist? I think not. If what separates us from the beasts is this ability to imagine an alternate reality, then what is the impetus to create things that inspire? Why would we even need inspiration? Wasn’t everything perfect in the garden?
A world that doesn’t offer us challenges is a world that does not inspire us to imagine and create. One might become disheartened and ask why little children have to suffer for this gift. True, this is a difficult question, one that does not have easy answers. Yet I cannot help but think that we have come so far as a species. The infant mortality rate is so extremely low compared to the dark ages. As a percentage, far more people on this planet are literate than any time in history. We have been to the moon, and talk into little tiny hand held boxes to people on the other side of the planet. We have a long way to go, but the raw material is there for us to make the better world we imagine. God gave it to us perfectly, what we do with it is up to us, but it is hubris to think that we could possibly imagine a world better suited for the development of humanity.

So my Dear rwingett my answer is this: It takes only the slightest, minutest amount of faith to be able to imagine a benevolent and perfect God. For those who do not feel that grand oceanic feeling of faith, the world will always seem a harsh and unfair place. But for those that do: God’s creation is perfect, down to the very smallest detail.