TO ALL OF REDHOTPAWN

Originally posted by Rolfey
logic is an obstacle? you must realise that this kind of view is as backwards as it gets?!

medics searched for the cure to polio, they found the cure to polio, they proved it to the world with hard factual evidence - this last part is what you are missing....

logic is an obstacle?

When it results in a closed mind it is.

medics searched for the cure to polio, they found the cure to polio, they proved it to the world with hard factual evidence - this last part is what you are missing....

Why should you prove God to the world? We’re discussing your spiritual journey, not the world’s.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Consider what this means. If the big bang is the most accepted theory that science has to offer, and science tells us that matter cannot come from just light and heat, it can be argued that science supports the possibility of a creator.

Nope. It just means out scientific knowledge is imperfect.

It would only support the possibility of a creator if there were a very small number of clearly articulated possibilities, e.g. "either matter came from light and heat or there is a creator".

Otherwise all we can really say is that we don't know, or understand. And that isn't an argument for the existence of anything.

Originally posted by dottewell
Nope. It just means out scientific knowledge is imperfect.

It would only support the possibility of a creator if there were a very small number of clearly articulated possibilities, e.g. "either matter came from light and heat or there is a creator".

Otherwise all we can really say is that we don't know, or understand. And that isn't an argument for the existence of anything.

It does support the idea of a creator more so than "something" come from "nothing." That's because there is a God. It's obvious in our universe and in the hearts of men. I know Jesus lives!

Originally posted by dottewell
Nope. It just means out scientific knowledge is imperfect.

It would only support the possibility of a creator if there were a very small number of clearly articulated possibilities, e.g. "either matter came from light and heat or there is a creator".

Otherwise all we can really say is that we don't know, or understand. And that isn't an argument for the existence of anything.

Science supports the big bang theory and it supports the theory that matter cannot come from just light and heat. If both of these theories are correct then there has to be a God because matter came from the big bang, and the big bang came from a singularity that had no matter in it, just light and heat. In this way science supports God. Keep in mind that “supports” does not mean “proves.”

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Science supports the big bang theory and it supports the theory that matter cannot come from just light and heat. If both of these theories are correct then there has to be a God because matter came from the big bang, and the big bang came from a singularity that had no matter in it, just light and heat. In this way science supports God. Keep in mind that “supports” does not mean “proves.”

No; all you can say in reply to the paradox is that both premises can't be true. This does not provide support for any positive metaphysical theory.

At most you can conclude that ASSUMING CURRENT SCIENCE IS CORRECT, then matter must have come from something other than light and heat. What this is, we cannot say, or guess. Still less can we claim that it was the intentional act of a sentient being. Still less can we call that being "God".

Originally posted by dottewell
No; all you can say in reply to the paradox is that both premises can't be true. This does not provide support for any positive metaphysical theory.

At most you can conclude that ASSUMING CURRENT SCIENCE IS CORRECT, then matter must have come from something other than light and heat. What this is, we cannot say, or guess. Still less can we claim that it was the intentional act of a sentient being. Still less can we call that being "God".

Science says that there was nothing else. Only the singularity existed before the big bang. That leaves only a creator that was both the cause of science and our physical reality, and also did not have to abide by those laws. The term “All Powerful” comes to mind.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]logic is an obstacle?

When it results in a closed mind it is.

medics searched for the cure to polio, they found the cure to polio, they proved it to the world with hard factual evidence - this last part is what you are missing....

Why should you prove God to the world? We’re discussing your spiritual journey, not the world’s.[/b]

a logical mind and a closed mind are two very different things. if I had a closed mind we would not even be having this discussion, instead, i am offering you or anyone to provide logical proof of the existence of the current mythical god. to say that logic is an obstacle is so fundamentally wrong it flies in the face of everything non-religous. as for close mindedness have you not thought that you may be afflicted by this? for example, you blindly follow a non proven god and fear a non proven hell instead of logically accepting that it was made up millenia ago (not accurate dating) by power hungry, lazy "men of god".

Originally posted by Rolfey
a logical mind and a closed mind are two very different things. if I had a closed mind we would not even be having this discussion, instead, i am offering you or anyone to provide logical proof of the existence of the current mythical god. to say that logic is an obstacle is so fundamentally wrong it flies in the face of everything non-religous. as for clo ...[text shortened]... ing that it was made up millenia ago (not accurate dating) by power hungry, lazy "men of god".

I understand what you’re saying. Here are some quotes from one of the most well respected scientist of all time.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
- Albert Einstien

This goes to show the value of an open mind.

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
- Albert Einstien

"No, this trick won't work...How on earth are you ever going to explain in terms of chemistry and physics so important a biological phenomenon as first love?"
- Albert Einstien

"Gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love."
- Albert Einstien

Here Einstein is saying that logic cannot explain everything that is important.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstien

Sometimes it is necessary to let go of logic and common sense to see what’s important.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."
- Albert Einstien

This is just the truth of it. Pursuing God is a relationship; it’s not a lab experiment. It can’t necessarily be defined in terms of logic. How do you prove you're feelings for those close to you to the rest of the world? What is the scientific measurement of that? God gives proof to those who seek him.

Edit: If it makes any difference I don't just reject science and follow religion blindly. I believe that science has shown that the world is billions of years old and not just a few thousand. I'm also inclined to accept evolution as a viable theory. Pursuing religion doesn’t have to mean abandoning reason. It simply means realizing that God cannot be explained by human logic.

Originally posted by dottewell
No; all you can say in reply to the paradox is that both premises can't be true. This does not provide support for any positive metaphysical theory.

At most you can conclude that ASSUMING CURRENT SCIENCE IS CORRECT, then matter must have come from something other than light and heat. What this is, we cannot say, or guess. Still less can we claim that it was the intentional act of a sentient being. Still less can we call that being "God".

Well, let's use the "cilia" for example, Ms. dottewell. The cilia (a microorganism) can travel at 10,000 RPMS one way and stop immediately - only to turn 10,000 RPMs the other way. It's made better than any car we have on the market today. Now, if we can say that a creator created the Camaro, the BMW or the Honda. Then, why are you saying that it is absurd to say that the cilia wasn't created by someone? Now, if this someone created the "cilia" also, then He must have an intelligence beyond anything our human minds can create. Unless you want to be very absurd and say that it just blew up and it happened... well, all I know is Jesus reigns supreme. And, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord of Lord and King of Kings. No matter how long people question the Truth, the Truth will be shown to them one way or the other - whether it be in Heaven or Hell. The Word of God - the Holy Bible - has never been disproven historically, scientifically, or any other way... In your position, we may not know that if we were on the Sun, we'd incinerate on impact... but if we don't know, how can we believe it? We've never been there. How do we really know? If we went by what you are saying dottewell, we'd all burn up one day seeing if we'd really be unable to touch the Sun. *wink* By the way, Jesus loves you and he wants you to accept Him as your Lord and Savior. Jesus loves you enough to die for your sins (John 3:16-18). God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world. He will give everyone every opportunity to hear His message and see His loving mercy. God is faithful and True. He will not fail you or I.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
I understand what you’re saying. Here are some quotes from one of the most well respected scientist of all time.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
- Albert Einstien

This goes to show the value of an open mind.

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not r ...[text shortened]... g reason. It simply means realizing that God cannot be explained by human logic.

i suddenly feel a little more respect for you (which i appreciate you may not care about!). too many followers of faith disregard too many factual things just because they contradict with the bible (the age of the earth as you say for example). your post is good and i admit i am too lazy to find quotes to support my cause, however i feel nothing has changed. if you are happy, i am happy to leave it be for this thread.

it was fun. take care.

Originally posted by Rolfey
a logical mind and a closed mind are two very different things. if I had a closed mind we would not even be having this discussion, instead, i am offering you or anyone to provide logical proof of the existence of the current mythical god. to say that logic is an obstacle is so fundamentally wrong it flies in the face of everything non-religous. as for clo ...[text shortened]... ing that it was made up millenia ago (not accurate dating) by power hungry, lazy "men of god".

I often find myself befuddled when I see the constant blindness of men, especially when science continuously moves towards the existence of God rather than the theory that holds "something" came out of "nothing." I have noticed that when a Christian uses only science to show that God - within an astronomical certainty - exists and that the theory of "something" out of "nothing" is becoming more astronomically impossible, the unbeliever continues to doubt. I believe Peter says God send them strong delusion? For example, I have often explained to an unbelieving observer that the Moon and Sun differ 400 times in size and are also separated by the exact amount of required space to match that difference during a solar eclipse. The Moon moves in front of the Sun in order to create the solar eclipse. "Isn't it incredible that a huge explosion put them in the exact places and distances they need to be?" I like to ask, "I guess you think that was only chance?" They still make some excuse and say God doesn't exist - the one who the heavens fled away from His face. They attempt to argue in vain - blinded like Peter said.

I sometimes ask the unbeliever, "How is it that if the Sun were 5% closer to the Earth we would burn into flames, and if the SUn were 5% farther away, we would freeze like on Pluto?" They ponder a bit, and then argue again. They still make some excuse. God sends them strong delusion. Satan accuses them before God for free reign to their soul. They attempt to argue in vain - blind like Peter says.

I wonder why the cilia (a microorganism) can turn 10,000 RPMs in one direction (faster than any automobile we can create on Earth) and then abruptly stop, turn around and turn 10,000 RMPs in the other direction. Think of the g-force! But, somehow this little microorganism completes these turns. These same little creatures live in our esophagus and help direct the flow of our mucus, ridding us of toxins. How is it that the unbeliever can believe the Encyclopedia Britannica was written by man and that DNA code was not written by God? If that same Encyclopedia were to come from space and land on Earth, the unbeliever would probably say it was an alien! Intelligent life! Is it all just chance? A big explosion of chance? Everything just popped into existence from "nothing?" Well, that's what Satan - that old serpend - would have you believe, and he certaintly does not want you to believe he alone exists. BANG! BANG! BANG! It all just happened. No, there is more inside a man. Namely his soul - his separate conscious entity.

I often find myself asking the unbeliever, "Why does consciousness exist?" Why do people - after they are dead - remain conscious? I've heard of one lady dying and floating above the hospital - only to see a tennis shoe on the roof. I read this incident in CASE FOR A CREATOR by Lee Strobel. Come to find out, she'd never been on top of that building. This obviously means we are so much more than our physical bodies. Could it be that something greater awaits our station in not this life but another?

I often find myself in dire straits. I am aggravated with the blindness of doubt and faithlessness. I get angry when people doubt God. I think doubting God is a fool's journey. I know God exists in my heart. I know Jesus is the Son of God who was sacrificed for my sins as the Word of God tells me without doubt. "How do you know?" the unbeliever may ask. BECAUSE!!! The Sun is 400 times farther away from the Moon because the Moon is 400 times smaller than the Sun, because the Sun is neither 5% closer or farther away from the Earth, because we have a consciousness separate from our physical body., because we cannot make anything as brilliantly designed as the cilia with all our multimillion dollar technology, because we who do believe feel a profound love for Our Lord Jesus, because I'm convicted when I sin and I must repent, because I've heard the angels singing to me in the shower when I prayed in the spirit with sincerity, and because nothing in the words of the Holy Bible ever failed mankind! And, there are more reasons, but it would take too long to list them all. BUt, just because of those few reasons, how can the unbeliever doubt? Maybe it's just like Peter insinuated. God sends them strong delusion. Blindeness follows the man or woman who doubts the divine God. Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and his Word shall never pass away. Not one bit of it will pass away until all His promises be fulfilled. This is Truth. This is Wisdom. To doubt the love of God's Son, Jesus Christ, is the ultimate act of fatality and futility! Love be unto you all in the name of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. Amen. *HUGZ*

Bucky Adams
Newport, Oregon

Originally posted by powershaker
I often find myself befuddled when I see the constant blindness of men, especially when science continuously moves towards the existence of God rather than the theory that holds "something" came out of "nothing." I have noticed that when a Christian uses only science to show that God - within an astronomical certainty - exists and that the theory of "so ...[text shortened]... st, the Lamb of God. Amen. *HUGZ*

Bucky Adams
Newport, Oregon

I read the first 3 sentences of this, then realised it was complete nonsense. I saw no reason to read further.