To kill or not to kill: capital punishment

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
How do you know that he was silent? If his disciples managed to write down everything he said, he sure didn't talk very much 🙂 One can only go by what was attributed to him. What was attributed to him, seems to indicate love and compassion rather than vengeance.

Well thats just it. What was written about him were the high lights, if you will. In fact, many of the gospels cover much the same groind so what is written is what they are saying he was all about.

My question stemmed about the focus of Christ and not about what he might have said. It is interesting to me that his focus did not seem to be attacking the Mosaic laws or the Roman laws, rather, his attack was geared for the religious leaders of the day who were poor shepards. I think this speaks volumes as to his overall purpose. His purpose was to change the hearts of the poeple rather than simply changing the laws.

Originally posted by wittywonka
I think Christians, at least, should look to the words of Jesus and attempt, at the least, to "love our enemies."

It is probably not so difficult as one might think, to "love our enemies" as what Jesus demands of us... at least not until the perpetrators harm us our our loved ones.

But maybe, just maybe, we would feel differently when we are faced with these "enemies" who raped your loved ones and took their lives. You'd be surprised how differently you'd feel with a small change in circumstances.

Originally posted by josephw
I also asked,(dottewell), if he had ever had any exposure to criminals.
Have you? I have. And I can and do make judgements based on my experience with them.
When someone commits murder, and is punished appropriately, then we show our respect for life. That is the dignified thing to do. Anything less IS barbaric.

Yes, regularly, in courts and occasionally in prison. Only a couple of killers, though.

My emotional response to most criminals is a combination of anger and sadness, in differing degrees depending on the circumstances.

Originally posted by whodey
Well thats just it. What was written about him were the high lights, if you will. In fact, many of the gospels cover much the same groind so what is written is what they are saying he was all about.

My question stemmed about the focus of Christ and not about what he might have said. It is interesting to me that his focus did not seem to be attacking the ...[text shortened]... rpose. His purpose was to change the hearts of the poeple rather than simply changing the laws.

Yes, ultimately it's about people changing their hearts.
Do you believe that vengeance and murder will remain in the hearts of people once they are changed?

Originally posted by ckoh1965
It is probably not so difficult as one might think, to "love our enemies" as what Jesus demands of us... at least not until the perpetrators harm us our our loved ones.

But maybe, just maybe, we would feel differently when we are faced with these "enemies" who raped your loved ones and took their lives. You'd be surprised how differently you'd feel with a small change in circumstances.

Only the unenlightened would feel differently.

Originally posted by amannion
Primitive types?
What the?

This notion of Darwinism as the 'survival of the fittest' is out of date and horribly irrelevant to the debate about capital punishment. I don't want to remove anyone.
Rather I think it demonstrates the civility of a society when they can make the decision NOT to kill another for whatever reason.

And by the way, I'm not a pacifist.

I disagree I don't think it shows that at all, and it doesn't even speak
to that issue. What does speak to it are the reasons for that type of
punishment and the lenghts a country goes to getting it right. The
fact that capital punishment is done, only shows where a line is drawn
upon what type of behavior is not acceptable to the nth degree.
Kelly

Originally posted by kirksey957
Actually I have met a murderer. A really nice gentle soul. Did his time and came out of prison looking to redeem his life and help others turn their lives around and is doing a quite remarkable job at it. He has a loving wife and two wonderful kids. It's kind of nice to see the Gospel lived out, wouldn't you say?

Yes it is, and this has what to do what the discussion? How is the
gospel being lived out in that guys life, what happen to him to
bring it into his life?
Kelly

Originally posted by XanthosNZ
You've turned things on their head. Executing murderers shows respect for life and to not do so is barbaric? That's ridiculous.

You still haven't addressed the point of the wrongly convicted. Or make a logical argument for any of your moral views.

I think he is correct you it does show a respect for life to punish to
that degree and it isn't ridiculous. As far as wrongly convicted that
has been addresses several times. How many people have died
because we let those guys out of jail that have done those types of
crimes in the past? How many of them would have been spared?
I'm willing to bet those numbers are higher additionally I bet when
those people killed again what they did was done in a more barbaric
fashion than what the state would have done to them. It isn't perfect
not any justice system on the earth is, but if it is just the number of
people who didn't do anything wrong will be small and checks are
all over the place to get it right even after the fact.
Kelly

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Here are some thoughts:

1) Governments have legal systems, not justice systems. People are sometimes convicted of crimes they did not commit. If given a life sentence, they can be freed if new evidence proves their innocence. If executed, well...

2) Sometimes people change. They should be given a chance to repent.

3) Even if the government carri ...[text shortened]... ce. I would think that whatever he said that conflicts with his disciples would get precedence.

1) good point. i'll have to think more on that. that would definitely fit in no eye-witnesses could be found. but, what if there were 2 or 3 witnesses to the event as perscribed by the bible?

2) i am a person who was changed. spiritually speaking, i am a murderer. i have hated people. jesus calls that murder. and because of my sins, jesus was killed. therefore, i killed him. i don't think i had the chance to repent. i was GIVEN repentence. we all must live with the consequences of our decisions. as an xian, however, i don't have to pay FOR the crime.

3) i agree, if we strictly define murder as killing premeditatedly. however, if we add "with malicious aforethought" to the definition, then we cannot accuse the government (TYPICALLY) of murder.

4) i cannot agree with this. jesus said that the disciples would do great things like him. he also said that they would record his words. he also claimed that the OT came from god. the disciple afirmed this and said that paul's (who was not a direct disciple of jesus) writings were scripture. paul wrote that the whole bible is inspired by god and is useful for instruction, growth, and discipline. contextually, i cannot agree with a hierarchy of sources within the bible.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes it is, and this has what to do what the discussion? How is the
gospel being lived out in that guys life, what happen to him to
bring it into his life?
Kelly

Notice the post I was responding to. The person I was responding to presents a "let's stone them" attitude while at the same time conveying his deep profound Christian faith.

To get back to your question about how the gospel is being lived out in his life- he is a successful and well respected drug and alcohol counselor. In the spirit of Luke 4:18, he is "healing the brokenhearted, and bringing healing to the captives." Of course bringing this up nearly got Jesus stoned.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I think he is correct you it does show a respect for life to punish to
that degree and it isn't ridiculous. As far as wrongly convicted that
has been addresses several times. How many people have died
because we let those guys out of jail that have done those types of
crimes in the past? How many of them would have been spared?
I'm willing to bet those ...[text shortened]... will be small and checks are
all over the place to get it right even after the fact.
Kelly

I find it totally inappropriate for our justice system to engage in the 'perfect' punishment (perfect - in that it is final) before it (the justice system) is perfect itself. Life in prison is cheaper more humane and allows for mistakes.

A-

Originally posted by josephw
A murderer, once they have killed, no longer has any intrinsic value.

Not according to your own faith.

Originally posted by josephw
A murderer, once they have killed, no longer has any intrinsic value.

Eh? So a believer cannot commit murder?

Originally posted by josephw
I also asked,(dottewell), if he had ever had any exposure to criminals.
Have you? I have. And I can and do make judgements based on my experience with them.
When someone commits murder, and is punished appropriately, then we show our respect for life. That is the dignified thing to do. Anything less IS barbaric.

Have you ever done any time in prison? You seem to have strong feelings about these criminals. I've noticed that ex-smokers are the most vehement against smoking.

Originally posted by Big Mac
1) good point. i'll have to think more on that. that would definitely fit in no eye-witnesses could be found. but, what if there were 2 or 3 witnesses to the event as perscribed by the bible?

2) i am a person who was changed. spiritually speaking, i am a murderer. i have hated people. jesus calls that murder. and because of my sins, jesus was killed. ther ...[text shortened]... and discipline. contextually, i cannot agree with a hierarchy of sources within the bible.

1) Does it matter how many witnesses there are, if an innocent man is executed?

2) I don't know that one can be "given" repentance. I see it as the change of heart advocated by Jesus. The overwhelming majority of Christians I know are remarkably unrepentant.

3) I guess I look at murder as killing with intent to do bodily harm to another individual. Naturally a goverment that performs killings would have a legal definition that would exclude itself.

4) It's little wonder that you struggle with what to do with conflicting scripture. There are just too many contraditions. I have to admit I'm perplexed at your stance. What does "new covenant" mean to you? I see Jesus as saying that he is bringing a new agreement with God that supercedes the old agreement. I don't think it necessarily invalidates everything about the old agreement, but in the case of contridiction, I'd think it'd be without question. Call me crazy, but if there's a contradiction between Jesus and one of his disciples, I'm giving Jesus the benefit of the doubt.