Too Proud & Stubborn

Originally posted by Suzianne
Yes. "Endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." This means ALL men get them. ALL men. This is how they are equal. Precisely.

Is that the "Creator" of the OT who dictated rules for slave ownership?

Or you got some special Suzibible?

Originally posted by Suzianne
This is also why I say that material wealth, intelligence, social station have NOTHING to do with making men UNequal. Men have certain rights, simply by virtue of being human, and that self-evidently includes ALL men.

I agree that all humans ought to have the same freedoms and rights. What is pretty "self-evident" is that not everyone agrees and that there has never been a time when they did. While you and I agree about human rights, at birth all humans are different and unequal in every single other aspect of the human condition.

Originally posted by josephw
Being created equal is God's design for us all. No one is better than another in God's eyes based on one's own merit. That idea is of human origin.

Everyone is physically, intellectually, emotionally different and not equal. You say: "No one is better than another in God's eyes based on one's own merit". This is a religious belief and only those who agree with you are going to agree with you. Deeming it "self-evident" is going to have no impact on people with different beliefs.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
As you say it is not universally "self-evident" then.

Is your position that NO truth is "self-evident?

Originally posted by Suzianne
This should be self-evident to anybody, except those with an agenda to somehow prove themselves part of the "privileged" class.

You must be kidding. There are probably hundreds of millions of downtrodden and disadvantaged people all around the world that do not believe that it is "self-evident" that they are "equal" to the "privileged" classes.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Yes. "Endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." This means ALL men get them. ALL men. This is how they are equal. Precisely.

Why is it that, apparently, only Americans understand this?

Because it is fundamental to our way of thinking. The concept is ingrained in the fiber of our national heritage. We understand that it is our God given right to be equal in the eyes of the law because our constitution reflects the Christian code of morality and justice irrespective of what anyone else may say.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Is that the "Creator" of the OT who dictated rules for slave ownership?

Or you got some special Suzibible?

That was another time. I've said before that provision was made for slaves because it was a worldwide construct and abolishing it overnight worldwide would have had other consequences and that would have overshadowed the business of getting men to follow their God. Is not slavery in any form considered, today, to be evil? There is a method to what you consider "madness".

Originally posted by Suzianne
...[A]bolishing [slavery] overnight worldwide would have had other consequences and that would have overshadowed the business of getting men to follow their God.

Why wasn't this written into the Constitution?

Originally posted by FMF
You must be kidding. There are probably hundreds of millions of downtrodden and disadvantaged people all around the world that do not believe that it is "self-evident" that they are "equal" to the "privileged" classes.

Oh, that is where you are wrong. It IS self-evident. That is WHY any class of downtrodden and disadvantaged men are angry and seek redress. Usually, because the privileged class is loathe to give that up, any such change comes only from revolution, usually armed revolution. But make no mistake. The disadvantaged are really, really pissed off because they KNOW all men are equal and deserve the same rights as those with material wealth.

Originally posted by Suzianne
That was another time. I've said before that provision was made for slaves because it was a worldwide construct and abolishing it overnight worldwide would have had other consequences and that would have overshadowed the business of getting men to follow their God. Is not slavery in any form considered, today, to be evil? There is a method to what you consider "madness".

That's just off the chart Comedy Gold Suzianne!!!! You've been at pains to point out that all men are created equal in this thread, yet when it has been unequivocally demonstrated this is clearly false, you brush it off with a shrug of the shoulders and dismiss it because it was a long time ago.

Originally posted by josephw
You're quoting out of context, and misrepresenting what I said.

No, I don't think I am. What was the context and in what way did I misrepresent what you said?

I do "hear" His voice, and you would hear it too if you would listen.
Yes, but I have to hear it before will listen.

The words of Jesus are the words of life. Just listen to Him.
I would if I could hear him. I can't. All I hear is the ramblings of some anonymous guy on the internet who can't get his story straight.

Originally posted by josephw
We understand that it is our God given right to be equal in the eyes of the law because our constitution reflects the Christian code of morality and justice irrespective of what anyone else may say.

I agree that all people have the right to be equal in the eyes of the law and I am unconvinced by any argument I have ever heard to the contrary - but the suggestion that this earthly political equality was somehow "given" to us by the God figure you happen to worship is not even "evident" to many people (including many people struggling for their human rights) let alone "self-evident".

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Many, many people would say this from many, many religions.

It means NOTHING.

THINK.

Many say, but do not. They practice hypocrisy.

You think! God isn't interested in what one may say if one says one thing and does another. "Religion" is a construct of man. It serves only to instill a sense of self righteousness. Whereas true faith in God seeks God's righteousness, not one's own.

All religions are false. Faith in God is the only true way, and that "way" is Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by FMF
Why wasn't this written into the Constitution?

Why would it have been? Do you subscribe to an America-centric view of world history?

Originally posted by Suzianne
This should be self-evident to anybody, except those with an agenda to somehow prove themselves part of the "privileged" class.

I have no such agenda and yet it is not self evident to me. It is notable that you are yet to give any actually justification for the claim and have instead relied entirely on repeating over and over that it is self evident despite the evidence to the contrary.