Too Proud & Stubborn

Originally posted by Suzianne
The disadvantaged are really, really pissed off because they KNOW all men are equal and deserve the same rights as those with material wealth.

Many are, of course. But ~ as an anecdote ~ I would say that most people in this country supported the Soeharto regime for 30 years and did so because they believed that some people simply have the right to rule and to rule in the way people like Soeharto did. His protege Prawobo ~ not an all-people-are-equal kind of guy, make no mistake about it ~ lost the 2014 election but gained 47% of the vote in a big turnout. Nothing about your admirable political slogan about 'all men being equal' ~ something I agree with ~ would have been "self-evident" to those people.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
That's just off the chart Comedy Gold Suzianne!!!! You've been at pains to point out that all men are created equal in this thread, yet when it has been unequivocally demonstrated this is clearly false, you brush it off with a shrug of the shoulders and dismiss it because it was a long time ago.

Look, I'm not privy to the mind of God.

All men ARE created equal. My point is that back then, it was widely (worldwide in fact) thought that OUR "clan" (whatever clan you belonged to) was the best and deserved much more than that other clan over the hill. Religion was a major factor in changing this credo. All men are created equal, regardless of one clan trying to convince everyone else that another clan is somehow less than they are. Man has a long history of trying to gain from convincing others that they are better than others. That doesn't change the clear, self-evident truth that all men ARE created equal. What men thought 3500 years ago doesn't really change this.

Originally posted by FMF
Many are, of course. But ~ as an anecdote ~ I would say that most people in this country supported the Soeharto regime for 30 years and did so because they believed that some people simply have the right to rule and to rule in the way people like Soeharto did. His protege Prawobo ~ not an all-people-are-equal kind of guy, make no mistake about it ~ lost the 2014 ...[text shortened]... 'all men being equal' ~ something I agree with ~ would have been "self-evident" to those people.

If you agree with it, isn't it self-evident to you?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Is your position that NO truth is "self-evident?

Good question.
Universally self evident would mean that all minds agreed.
So to be pedantic I would have to say that "No truth is universally self evident".

However from a practiccal point of view obviously some truths are self evident;

Originally posted by Suzianne
Look, I'm not privy to the mind of God.

All men ARE created equal. My point is that back then, it was widely (worldwide in fact) thought that OUR "clan" (whatever clan you belonged to) was the best and deserved much more than that other clan over the hill. Religion was a major factor in changing this credo. All men are created equal, regardless of one ...[text shortened]... uth that all men ARE created equal. What men thought 3500 years ago doesn't really change this.

I think all people being equal in terms of their rights is the best way for humans to organize themselves morally, economically and politically speaking. I don't claim that the case for this is "self-evident". But I think it's morally strong. Your notion that this way for humans to organize themselves was "given" to us by your God figure is not "self-evident". It is just a religious belief.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Good question.
Universally self evident would mean that all minds agreed.
So to be pedantic I would have to say that "No truth is universally self evident".

However from a practiccal point of view obviously some truths are self evident;

Flames burn, hurt, and destroy skin and flesh. That is "self-evident".

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have no such agenda and yet it is not self evident to me. It is notable that you are yet to give any actually justification for the claim and have instead relied entirely on repeating over and over that it is self evident despite the evidence to the contrary.

That's what makes a truth self-evident. It requires no "justification". It is known to be true.
Even to you. Unless you're claiming that there is a class of men that deserve rights that you yourself do not have claim to.

Originally posted by FMF
Flames burn, hurt, and destroy skin and flesh. That is "self-evident".

I taught an autistic boy who felt no pain.
Those things would not be self-evident to him.

Originally posted by FMF
I agree that all people have the right to be equal in the eyes of the law and I am unconvinced by any argument I have ever heard to the contrary - but the suggestion that this earthly political equality was somehow "given" to us by the God figure you happen to worship is not even "evident" to many people (including many people struggling for their human rights) let alone "self-evident".

If you live to be a thousand years old you will never see this world be anything other than what you see it to be today.

The ideal of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is to spread its truth to as many as possible while we can. This is not a perfect world and never will be as long as man is at the helm.

We wait for the appearing of the one that will set all things to right. Who knows, it may even happen in our lifetime. Until it does we work to make this world a better place for our children, and to do justice to all men.

As to that which is "self evident", God is reflected in everything that He created. All our senses are designed to perceive God's handiwork, but "knowing" God is by His Spirit communicated to our spirit when we are "born again".

God isn't a "figure" erected by or in our imagination. God is Truth objectively, separate from ourselves until it is understood in and by our regenerated spirit at the moment of the new birth.

Originally posted by Suzianne
If you agree with it, isn't it self-evident to you?

No, but I think that the argument that all people being equal in terms of their rights is far more morally sound than the arguments in favour of political inequality.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Look, I'm not privy to the mind of God.

All men ARE created equal. My point is that back then, it was widely (worldwide in fact) thought that OUR "clan" (whatever clan you belonged to) was the best and deserved much more than that other clan over the hill. Religion was a major factor in changing this credo. All men are created equal, regardless of one ...[text shortened]... uth that all men ARE created equal. What men thought 3500 years ago doesn't really change this.

Slavery laws in the Bible show this to be unequivocally false. Your God gave laws to the Hebrews stating that non-Hebrew slaves could be kept as property and passed on to the children of the slave owner. How can you say with a straight face God created ALL men equal?

Originally posted by josephw

If you live to be a thousand years old you will never see this world be anything other than what you see it to be today.

The ideal of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is to spread its truth to as many as possible while we can. This is not a perfect world and never will be as long as man is at the helm.

We wait for the appearing of the one that will set all things to right. Who knows, it may even happen in our lifetime. Until it does we work to make this world a better place for our children, and to do justice to all men.

As to that which is "self evident", God is reflected in everything that He created. All our senses are designed to perceive God's handiwork, but "knowing" God is by His Spirit communicated to our spirit when we are "born again".

God isn't a "figure" erected by or in our imagination. God is Truth objectively, separate from ourselves until it is understood in and by our regenerated spirit at the moment of the new birth.

I used to be a Christian myself. I understand the specifics of your religious beliefs. But none of what you claim is "self-evident", regardless of how certain and sincere you are in your beliefs.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Look, I'm not privy to the mind of God.

All men ARE created equal. My point is that back then, it was widely (worldwide in fact) thought that OUR "clan" (whatever clan you belonged to) was the best and deserved much more than that other clan over the hill. Religion was a major factor in changing this credo. All men are created equal, regardless of one ...[text shortened]... uth that all men ARE created equal. What men thought 3500 years ago doesn't really change this.

"Look, I'm not privy to the mind of God."

Yes you are. You have "the mind of Christ" which is the Word of God. 😉

Originally posted by josephw
If you live to be a thousand years old you will never see this world be anything other than what you see it to be today.

The ideal of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is to spread its truth to as many as possible while we can. This is not a perfect world and never will be as long as man is at the helm.

We wait for the appearing of the one that ...[text shortened]... urselves until it is understood in and by our regenerated spirit at the moment of the new birth.

Joseph, I'm with you, but for those that believe, you are singing to the choir.

For those that don't believe, you're just whistling in the graveyard, and you're not going to change their mind.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Look, I'm not privy to the mind of God."

Yes you are. You have "the mind of Christ" which is the Word of God. 😉[/b]

(I've just re-written this reply like four times now... 🙂 )

You might be right. I sat here and tried to come up with "Well, I don't know why God did X." But then I said, "Well, no, I do know why." I ran through like five examples, but I found I have a reasonable reason for all of it. But a lot of that is just conjecture on my part. I can support much of my personal theology with scripture, but I never will have personal confirmation of much of what I believe. A lot of it is just faith. A lot. I still believe that "God moves in mysterious ways." Mysterious because I don't know why, and I may not even be equipped to know why. I know this will change after Judgement and we'll all know the whole scoop at that time, but some of it I can't know for a fact right now. You know what I mean?