The best illustration that I have heard is the man was made as a God shaped vessel to contain God.
Just like a glove is made in the image of a human hand. It is made in that image for a certain reason. That is that the hand may fit into the glove.
The glove is in the shape of a hand so that the hand may fit comfortably into the glove.
Genesis says that God created man in His own image. Then this created man was placed before the tree of life. That was the content - divine life. And the vessel was the created man in the image of God.
God created man in His image for the purpose of entering into man to be one with man.
Where do we see God and man mingled together as one - totally in the Person of Jesus Christ.
Man was made according to Jesus Christ. And God's eternal plan is to fill the universe with Jesus Christ mass produced.
Originally posted by jaywillprove that god made man in his own image. a little bit tricky. only that this may be the image god would want for himself if asked, but the painting in the chaple paints god as a old man touching adam to give life is this your image?? God lives in jesus but i would not say they were identical twins. when jesus walked the earth he did not look that different to the people it was what he did and said made him stand out.
How we interpret image may be discussion in itself.
However, Christ is said to be the image of the invisible God.[b] (Colossians 1:15)
And man, God created in His own image. (Genesis 1:26,27)
So man was made according to Christ. That is unless you can prove that Genesis 1:26,27 is not true or that Colossians 1:15 is not true.[/b]
Stoker,
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prove that god made man in his own image. a little bit tricky.
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We can trust the word of God on this.
But one thing is certain. Of all the creatures on this earth humans occupy a unique class. There is something that sets humans apart from all other creatures.
In His creation of man God seems to get more intimately involved. He has a conference in the Godhead and says "Let Us make man in our image, after our likeness ..." (Gen. 1:26). He seems to take a personal interest in the creation of man above what He does in making the other creatures.
A special conference was held. A special decision was made. This being is unique in God's creation. We sense our uniqueness among all animals on the earth.
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only that this may be the image god would want for himself if asked, but the painting in the chaple paints god as a old man touching adam to give life is this your image??
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I don't care for those pictures. But when it says that "And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became aliving soul." (Genesis 2:7) I do imagine God coming to this event more in a human form.
The scene of Him stooping down and breathing into man's nostrils the breath of life may perhaps indicate that the pre-incarnated Christ in human form and performed this action. So chapter two does seem to hold some anthropomorphic symbols which chapter one does not as much.
We also see God coming to Adam in the cool of the day. Don't you visualize someone walking in the garden to meet Adam?
So while I am wary of the artististic pictures, I do think there is some ground in chapter two to imagine from the text God coming in form of a man.
The writer Moses seemed to have no problem in Genesis 18 discribing how God came to have lunch with Abraham. God appeared in this form in the Old Testament at times. And I don't think we can get away from that.
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God lives in jesus but i would not say they were identical twins. when jesus walked the earth he did not look that different to the people it was what he did and said made him stand out.
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I agree with you that in appearance He blended in with everyone around. I consider it one of the great miracles of the Bible that He did. Think of it. For 30 years He moved in and out among the people of His home town Nazareth and made no particular stupendous stir. And that even though He was God incarnate.
God wants to blend with humanity. God wants to mingle with humanity.
God wants to unite with man and be interwoven with the fabric of humanity.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
This indicates how much the eternal Spirit of God desires to mingle and unite with the human spirit of men and women. To mingle two or more things means to combine them so that the components remain distinguishable in the combination.
God's eternal purpose is to mingle with His creature man. But in the mingling, in the combination, we can still discern human being and God's Being. The two components remain distinguishable in the combination.
At the end of the Bible - the holy city New Jerusalem is the ultimate mingling of God and man. Humanity is deified and God is dispensed into man for eternity.
Originally posted by stokerYou have refered to pictures on stain glass windows and Charlton Heston. I think I need to tell you that I don't derive my thoughts on theology from stain glass windows or from Hollywood Bible movies.
You put it in that last post the writer moses, are you refering to the same as the charlton heston one or another.
But god sent his angels to Abraham and dinned with them just before going on to sodom and gamora not god.
I derive my thoughts from reading the Bible. Let's talk about what's in the Bible. Shall we?
If so, to the problem at hand. Did God come to Abraham in Genesis 18 as a man?
You say no and that it was three angels. Well strickly speaking and angel is a messenger. So if you say three messengers came to Abraham I would agree that God can come as a messenger.
But perhaps you mean three angelic creatures came to Abraham. And neither of the three was God Himself - I think I disagree at this time. I think that Moses intended to communicate that one of the three was Jehovah God. It is tricky visualizing the account without this understanding.
So at this time I think the account is best understood as one of the three men being God. The chapter begins saying that God appeared to Abraham:
"And Jehovah appeared unto him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent foor in the heat of the day; and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him ....
If three went to visit Abraham on the way to Sodom why did only two enter into the city?
And if Jehovah appearing to Abraham was another vision from the vision of the three men, why would Abraham leave God and run to the men? That doesn't seem proper.
Now put it together. Genesis 18:22 says:
"And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodon: but Abraham stood yet before Jehovah. And Abraham drew near, and said, whill you consume the righeous with the wicked?"
Can't you see two of the men departing, one remaining behind, and Abraham drawing near to the one remaining to ask questions? We are told that "Abraham stood yet before Jehovah. He stood before the one man remaining.
After the conversation it says in verse 33 - "And Jehovah went His way, as soon as He left off communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place."
This understanding seems right to me because chapter 19 says "And the TWO angels came to Sodom at evening ..." (my emphasis)
Originally posted by jaywillBeen there, done that myself. I was just taken back a bit, that’s all.
Quite the contrary to discouraging your posts, I think your submissions are very good topics for exchanges.
I was [b]rushing off and sometimes I mix people up into one person.
Sorry if I sounded confrontational. I have no special criteria I'm expecting you to adhere to.[/b]
There is, of course, no reason why one cannot assume that Eden represents an actual place way back in human history, and still read the story on many levels. Myth, for example, seems to often have its roots in real events, the details of which may be lost to human consciousness while the fact remains, as it were, embedded in the collective unconscious. (Not arguing for that, just raising one possibility.)
Ibelive god did not come as 3 angels but sent 3 angels as he told moses you can only look on my back as you will die if you see my face. They however went and stayed with lot and family before carring out gods work. In my bible it gods name but not as you have it. tho ive read a witness bible that uses this name a lot.
As my knowledge informs me the world belongs to satan given to him by god god does not set down on unholy ground even when appearing to jesus on the mount with moses and elijah (new testerment).
Originally posted by stokerIbelive god did not come as 3 angels but sent 3 angels as he told moses you can only look on my back as you will die if you see my face.
Ibelive god did not come as 3 angels but sent 3 angels as he told moses you can only look on my back as you will die if you see my face. They however went and stayed with lot and family before carring out gods work. In my bible it gods name but not as you have it. tho ive read a witness bible that uses this name a lot.
As my knowledge informs me the world ...[text shortened]... unholy ground even when appearing to jesus on the mount with moses and elijah (new testerment).
I respect your belief. But for your own sake you have to be able to defend it a little better.
Can you remember if "three angels" is explicitly stated in Genesis 18? What exactly does it say about the three individuals who come to visit Abraham?
What it says is this: "And Jehovah APPEARED unto him [Abraham] by the oaks of Mamre ... (Gen. 18:1)
First of all there is no argument that God DID appear to Abraham according to Genesis 18:1. Any suggestion that Abraham only saw His back is purely conjectural on your part because it doesn't say that explicitly. You may imagine that.
Second of all Genesis 18 goes on to say, not three angels, but three men:
And Jehovah appeared under him [Abraham] by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heart of the day: and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, THREE MEN stood over against him ..."
Does it say "three angels"? No it does not. It says "three men".
Now to Abraham's reaction:
"and, lo, three men stood over against him: and when he saw t hem, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself to the earth, and said, My lord, if now I have found favor in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from they servant ...(Genesis 18:2-3 American Standard Bible 1901)
Now do you believe that God appeared to Abraham and then Abraham "lifted up his eyes" AWAY from God's appearing to look instead at "three men"?.
Or do you believe that Araham lifted up his eyes and THEN saw God?
Do you believe that Abraham lifted up his eyes away from the sight of God and instead got up to run to three men and do homage to them, leaving off the vision of God for the visitation of the three men?
I do not believe this. I believe that Abraham lifted up his eyes and in doing that it was fulfilled what was said "And Jehovah appeared unto him by the aoks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the hear of the day ..."
In other words:
First Abraham sat at the tent door.
Secondly, he lifted up his eyes and saw three men.
Third in doing so, in lifting his eyes to see the men, Jehovah appeared to Araham.
Fourth, rather than LEAVE the vision of God, he ran towards the three men and did homage to God.
God was one of the three men. That is what Moses is trying to tell us.
We know from the book of Daniel that the archangle Gabriel is called the man in one instance and the angel in another instance. So angels can appear to men as men.
And of course the entire revelation of the Bible tells us that God came to earth in Christ as God incarnate.
So this vision of Jehovah in three men was a pre-incarnation appearance of Christ before He was born. The passage, I think, should be interpreted this way. And it is admittedly, very mysterious.
I am not afraid to say that there are things in the Bible which are mysterious.
If you hold that one of the three men was not God then you have to imagine that Abraham LEFT the vision of God and ran instead to give full attention to three men.
That is all I can share with you this morning. But at least I share with you hopefully, the enjoyment of the word of God in Genesis 18.
They however went and stayed with lot and family before carring out gods work. In my bible it gods name but not as you have it. tho ive read a witness bible that uses this name a lot.
As my knowledge informs me the world belongs to satan given to him by god god does not set down on unholy ground even when appearing to jesus on the mount with moses and elijah (new testerment).
Originally posted by stokerAre we getting mixed up here ?? In another chapter in Genesis Abraham did hear God speaking to him. True.
Ithink you getting mixed up?? I wrote moses could not see the face lest he die Abraham to my knowledge never saw god tho he heard a voice and was stopped from taking his only sons life
But we were on chapter 18.
"And Jehovah appeared unto him [Abraham] by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day"
Genesis 18:1 says that God - Jehovah (or Yahweh if your prefer) "appeared" to Abraham. In chapter 18 of Genesis Abraham saw God. It couldn't be much clearer.
I am reading from the 1901 American Standard. The Jehovah's Witnesses no longer use this version, as far as I know.
I am not one of the "Jehovah's Witnesses."
Originally posted by jaywillAnd if Jehovah appearing to Abraham was another vision from the vision of the three men, why would Abraham leave God and run to the men? That doesn't seem proper.
[b]Ibelive god did not come as 3 angels but sent 3 angels as he told moses you can only look on my back as you will die if you see my face.
I respect your belief. But for your own sake you have to be able to defend it a little better.
Can you remember if "three angels" is explicitly stated in Genesis 18? What exactly does it n when appearing to jesus on the mount with moses and elijah (new testerment).[/b]
First, I think your whole exegesis of this story (in both posts) is very, very good. None of the following is intended as a critique at all. In fact, in the future, when I think of various plausible, meaningful readings of this text, I will add yours to the list, along with such as the one’s below.
I did go to some of my Jewish commentaries to find out what other readings there might be, and found the following. (Jewish readings of this text, as usual, vary widely, with no definitive reading.) I only selected the above quote from your post when I found one reading that suggests that the mitzvah of hospitality would make such behavior eminently proper.
My own offering at the bottom, however, is perhaps a synthesis of some of what you said (for example, about anthropomorphic symbolism), Franz Rosenzweig’s “midrash,” and the note I found about the possibility of Abraham’s confusion in the context of a theophanous appearance (and your comment about the mysteriousness of such an event).
Finding the quotes by Rebbe Nachman capped this whole exercise off for me. Like the rabbis (and you), I find that this kind of study can be a contemplative exercise in itself. Thanks for drawing me back to it...
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NRS Genesis 18:1 And YHVH appeared to him [Abraham] by the terebinths of Mamre, as he sat at the entrance of his tent in the heat of the day.
2 He looked up and saw three men (enoshim) standing near him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent entrance to meet them, and bowed down to the ground.
3 He said, "My lord(s), if I find favor with you, do not pass by your servant.
4 Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree.
5 Let me bring a little bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant." So they said, "Do as you have said."
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On one reading, the opening words—“And YHVH appeared”—serve to make it clear that the visitors in the following verses are an apparition of the Divine. [1]
This is further emphasized by the fact that Abraham did not see the visitors coming, but they suddenly appeared “standing near him.” One Orthodox Jewish translation renders it: “He lifted his eyes, and saw: And behold! Three men were standing over him.” [2]
—The commentary for this translation says: “As is apparent from the rest of the narrative, these three men were actually angels in the “guise” of men.
In verse 3, adonai can be read, quite literally, as either singular or plural. Source [1] renders it in the plural, source [2] in the singular (as do all of the Christian translations that I have seen). Some commentators have suggested that the movement between singular and plural in the story give evidence of some fusion of two different, more ancient, traditions. Others that it suggests a certain confusion on the part of Abraham in the midst of a theophanous experience.
“Maimonides understood the entire episode to have been a vision.” [1]
Franz Rosenzweig’s commentary: “The story opens by saying that God appeared to Abraham (Gen. 18:1), but when Abraham applies the vision to his own world he suddenly sees three men standing before him (Gen. 18:2). Abraham is the religious man par excellence for he sees God in the human situation.” [1]
—This is not exactly what you have been saying, jaywill, but the reasoning seems quite similar: a stream capable of feeding alternative branches, perhaps.
Another reading is that: first God appeared to Abraham, and then three men. Abraham then “interrupted” his engagement with YHVH to tend to the needs of his sudden guests, according to the mitzvah of hospitality. “Rav Judah said in Rav's name: Hospitality to wayfarers is greater than welcoming the presence of the Shekhinah [i.e., the Divine Presence], for it is written, ‘And he said, My lord, if now I have found favor in thy sight, pass not away’, etc.” (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Shabbat, 127a)
—In this reading, adonai is read as singular, and Abraham is asking YHVH not to depart, while he (Abraham) tends to the mitzvah of hospitality.
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Another spin (following Rosenzweig and some of jaywill’s thought)— Since the divine presence may appear to us in everyday life in many forms, we should be attentive. Anthropomorphic—and other natural—symbols that point to, or express, the divine may be found not only in the text, but in the most “mundane” moments of our existence.
Rebbe Nachman of Bratslav said [3]:
Seek the sacred within the ordinary.
Seek the remarkable within the commonplace.
Is not the Song of Songs at once a love song
and the holiest of all sacred teachings?
He also said:
Even with a good eye, be careful not to rush to judgment.
This is no different from looking at something from afar
and drawing the wrong conclusion.
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Sources:
[1] The Torah: A Modern Commentary; Union of American Hebrew Congregations (Reform); the translation used is that of the Jewish Publication Society (JPS).
[2] The Stone Edition Tanach; The ArtScroll Series; Mesorah Publications, Ltd.
[3] The Empty Chair: Timeless Wisdom from a Hasidic Master, Rebbe Nachman of Breslov; adapted by Moshe Mykoff; Jewish Lights Publishing.
Originally posted by vistesdThat is very interesting. Thanks.
[b]And if Jehovah appearing to Abraham was another vision from the vision of the three men, why would Abraham leave God and run to the men? That doesn't seem proper.
First, I think your whole exegesis of this story (in both posts) is very, very good. None of the following is intended as a critique at all. In fact, in the future, when I think of vari Master, Rebbe Nachman of Breslov[/i]; adapted by Moshe Mykoff; Jewish Lights Publishing.[/b]
I will read it again at least one more time before I have any comment.
You work hard.
One thing I think we should all be able to agree on.
There is something happening with this man Abraham in the ancient times. I mean you have three major faiths all claiming a connection to some man named Abraham of long ago.
Something SIGNIFICANT had to occur with this man. Jews say so. Christians say so. Moslems say so.
It seems very likely that the children and offspring of this man Abraham whether they got along with each other or not, attributed something momentously significant to be in relation to his life.