Trinity problems...

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Manny i am not saying that there are not devout Christians who go to church every Sunday, who look after those who are less needy, who give to charity, who look after their families and attend the sick, etc etc

however, the primary work that Christ Jesus did while he was on earth was to help people spiritually, which meant, going from village to v ...[text shortened]... e ask you to provide evidence of this public ministry, if you cannot, then the statement stands.

There a dozens of ways of "coming into your home" .. via radio, television, internet, newspapers etc etc. Why is there a need to physically go into every house?

Your conclusions demonstrate your limited horizon, and you are using this narrow minded view to condemn the rest of Christianity and in the process elevate yourself and your fellow JWs.. totally contrary to the teachings of Christ.

What I found is that JWs are not interested in preaching the doctrine of Christ and spreading the Gospel but instead try to gain converts into the JW faith .. not what Christ commanded us to do.

Originally posted by black beetle
Define Trinity;
😵

From Merriam-Webster:

Pronunciation: \ˈtri-nə-tē\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English trinite, from Anglo-French trinité, from Late Latin trinitat-, trinitas state of being threefold, from Latin trinus threefold
Date: 13th century
1 : the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma

Simply put, "tri" meaning three, "unity" meaning one; three-in-one.

Kind of late in the game to be asking for definitions, don't you think?

Originally posted by Conrau K
Several times I have corrected you, asked for further proof or given criticism to some of your arguments. I have asked you to supply evidence that the Trinity is pagan and all you have given me is a highly biased apologetic piece which does not answer my question; I have answered several of your interpretations of Scripture, especially Col 1:15 but you haven't replied. So don't get all huffy when no one else responds to you.

First Conrau what are the definitions of the word "Image" as in Col 1:15?
A couple cross referances explain. First he is a spirit "like" his Father. He is also "invisable" like his Father. He is "incorruptible" like his Father.
My Oxford Dictionary says: Representation, the character, reputation, counterpart, radiation, semblance, likeness, resemblance, example, simile, a mental representation.
No where in any discription does it say the "same being" or anything to hint that. But all these descriptions explain very clearly that Jesus is like his Father in their thoughts, plans, goals, likes and dislikes, morals..etc.
Jesus is like an ambassador between God and humans. So as a result when you see or hear what Jesus says with reguarding God's words and commands, it is like hearing God himself just as an ambassador would relate it's governments decrees.
If you can view Jesus as that, then look back at other scriptures where the trinity belief is applied and see if it would make sence that Jesus represents God and not God himself.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
From Merriam-Webster:

Pronunciation: \ˈtri-nə-tē\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English trinite, from Anglo-French trinité, from Late Latin trinitat-, trinitas state of being threefold, from Latin trinus threefold
Date: 13th century
1 : the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian ...[text shortened]... three-in-one.

Kind of late in the game to be asking for definitions, don't you think?

And some interpretations of that dogmatic view is contrary to

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

'Head of' .. not 'equal to' as some Christians think.

Originally posted by jaywill
We've been through the Master Worker of Proverbs before too.

God [b]possessed His wisdom from the beginning (see 8:22). It does not say God CREATED His wisdom in the beginning.

And if God had NOT wisdom then how is it He was wise enough to CREATE wisdom ?

You have no case from the book of Proverbs.

"Jehovah posse ...[text shortened]... d. [b](John 1:1)

Explain to us what gave the eternal God the wisdom to create wisdom.[/b]

Jay...I'm really believeing that you are blind to very basic scriptures. They say what they say and yet you don't believe them. I don't know what else to say to you. I'm sorry.

Originally posted by Rajk999
And some interpretations of that dogmatic view is contrary to

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

'Head of' .. not 'equal to' as some Christians think.

Apples, meet oranges. We all have roles to play. My subordination to my boss at work doesn't make me less than her equal. My wife's submission to me doesn't lessen her person as a result.

Roles to play.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Apples, meet oranges. We all have roles to play. My subordination to my boss at work doesn't make me less than her equal. My wife's submission to me doesn't lessen her person as a result.

Roles to play.

Your 'roles to play', does not void the hierachy clearly defined here --

- the head of every man is Christ
- the head of the woman is the man
- the head of Christ is God.

Originally posted by galveston75
Jay...I'm really believeing that you are blind to very basic scriptures. They say what they say and yet you don't believe them. I don't know what else to say to you. I'm sorry.

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Jay...I'm really believeing that you are blind to very basic scriptures. They say what they say and yet you don't believe them. I don't know what else to say to you. I'm sorry.
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I have read this comment. And in reaction to it I opened up my Bible to Proverbs 8. Starting with verse 15 and read on CAREFULLY through until verse36 to see what you are talking about.

I do not see, after carefully reading, why you would say God CREATED a creature called Wisdom.

It certainly is not taught in verses 21 or 22. - "Jehovah POSSESSED me in the beginning of His ways ..."

So I read on - "Where is he getting the concept that God CREATED a creature called WISDOM? WHERE ??

Could it be here ? "I was set up from eternity, from the beginiing, before the earth was" (v.23)

But I ask myself, "For God to "set up" something, does that have to mean He then CREATED it?"

My honest answer is "No". God setting up something does not insist that He then CREATED that thing. We were previously told that He already POSSESSED this personage in the beginning.

What other verse in Proverbs 8 could give you JW's this idea?

"Before the hills I was brought forth" (v.25)

Does God bringing forth something before the hills insist that He created that thing then? My answer is "No. Bringing forth does not insist creation".

Verse 29,30 say " ... When He marked out the foundations of the earth; Then I was by Him [God] as a master workman; And I was daily His delight,

Rejoicing in His babitable earth; And my delight was in the sons of men"

I ask myself "Where in this passage is the proof that God CREATED His Wisdom before the earth was created?" It is not there.

Proverbs 8 may speak strongly about the existence of WISDOM before the creation of the physical universe. Proverbs 8 does not prove that WISDOM was an item of God's creation before He created all other things.

If I am blind to the basics, then WHERE in all of this Proverb do you derive that God CREATED a creature - WISDOM before anything else was created?

If the WISDOM of GOD did not exist before God CREATED the WISDOM of God, HOW DID HE HAVE THE WISDOM TO KNOW WHAT TO MAKE WISDOM BE AND DO ??

Can you answer us that, if I am so blind to the basics ?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
From Merriam-Webster:

Pronunciation: \ˈtri-nə-tē\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English trinite, from Anglo-French trinité, from Late Latin trinitat-, trinitas state of being threefold, from Latin trinus threefold
Date: 13th century
1 : the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian ...[text shortened]... three-in-one.

Kind of late in the game to be asking for definitions, don't you think?

Are these "persons" real or imaginary?

Furthermore, some Christians worship the Trinitarian Christian God and some they do not. Define the "unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead" according to the specific denomination of the Christian religion that is accepted by yourself
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
Are these "persons" real or imaginary?

Furthermore, some Christians worship the Trinitarian Christian God and some they do not. Define the "unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead" according to the specific denomination of the Christian religion that is accepted by yourself
😵

Does the Godhead count as a fourth?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Does the Godhead count as a fourth?

Our darling Freaky will soon comment😵

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=============================================
Jay...I'm really believeing that you are blind to very basic scriptures. They say what they say and yet you don't believe them. I don't know what else to say to you. I'm sorry.
==============================================

I have read this comment. And in reaction to it I opened up my Bible to Pr ...[text shortened]... DO ??

Can you answer us that, if I am so blind to the basics ?[/b]

This beginning of this wisdom is here speaking of the wisdom that he gave to his son Jesus at the time of Jesus's creation many ions of time ago. But wisdom as with his Father, Jehovah, has always been as Jehovah has always existed with no beginning. If you especially look at verses 22-36 and you can see this is Jesus's own words of his beginning and learning from his Father Jehovah. Verse 30 confirms his position then.

Originally posted by galveston75
This beginning of this wisdom is here speaking of the wisdom that he gave to his son Jesus at the time of Jesus's creation many ions of time ago. But wisdom as with his Father, Jehovah, has always been as Jehovah has always existed with no beginning. If you especially look at verses 22-36 and you can see this is Jesus's own words of his beginning and learning from his Father Jehovah. Verse 30 confirms his position then.

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This beginning of this wisdom is here speaking of the wisdom that he gave to his son Jesus at the time of Jesus's creation many ions of time ago.
===================================

The poetry is speaking of Wisdom ITSELF.

"Does not wisdom call, And understanding lift up her voice ? " (Proverbs 8:1)

The beginnng of the chapter does not talk about wisdom after given to anyone, but rather wisdom itself as a personage.

Wisdom is the speaker in this poetry:

"Hear, for I will speak noble things; And the opening of my lips will yield right things." (v.6)

For my mouth [Wisdom's mouth] will utter truth, and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. (v7)

All the words of my mouth are in righteousness ... receive my instruction ..." (v.10)

The speaker is suppose to be Wisdom itself. And Wisdom IS the master workman by God in verse 30.

Where is the verse saying God either CREATED Wisdom or CREATED Jesus in Proverbs 8?


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But wisdom as with his Father, Jehovah, has always been as Jehovah has always existed with no beginning.
==============================

Exactly. And there is no passage speaking of this Wisdom being transfered to a created being, with the exception of a few sentences like this:

"O simple ones, understand prudence; And, O fools, be of an understanding heart. Hear, for I will speak noble things ..."(v.5,6)

The only transfer of Wisdom in this chapter is to foolish men. There is the call for them to hear and learn from this speaking personage wisdom.

"I am understanding; I have might. By me kings reign, and rulers decree justice. By me princes rule, And nobles - all who judge righteously." (vs.14,15)

There is no verse in this chapter that speaks of Wisdom passing from God to the first angel, the first creature created by God. Where is that verse showing this wisdom being bestowed up the first angel created by God?

===========================
If you especially look at verses 22-36 and you can see this is Jesus's own words of his beginning and learning from his Father Jehovah. Verse 30 confirms his position then.
==================================

"I am Jehovah and there is no one else; Besides Me there is no God;
There is no one else besiddes Me. I am Jehovah and there is no one else." (See Isaiah 45:4-6)

I am Jehovah who makes all things, Who ALONE stretches out the heavens, Who spread out the earth (Who was with Me?) (See Isaiah 44:24)

Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And His Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts,

I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isa. 44:6)

"You are My witnesses, declares Jehovah ... In order that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He.

Before Me there was no God formed, Neither will there be any after Me.

I, even I, am Jehovah; And there is no Savior besides Me." (See Isaiah 43:10,11)

There is nothing at all in Proverbs chapter 8 which contradicts these clear statements of Jehovah being the Creator and the only God - " ... I am Jehovah who makes all things ... WHO WAS WITH ME ?" (44:24)

Proverbs 8 is rather poetic. Isaiah 43-46 very straight forward and clear. And no verse in Proverbs chapter 8 explicitly teaches that God created another god.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=================================
This beginning of this wisdom is here speaking of the wisdom that he gave to his son Jesus at the time of Jesus's creation many ions of time ago.
===================================

The poetry is speaking of Wisdom ITSELF.

"Does not wisdom call, And understanding lift up her voice ? " (Proverb ...[text shortened]... verse in Proverbs chapter 8 explicitly teaches that God created another god.

He created Jesus the "Master Worker" who created all we see with the direction of his Father... I don't know how that can be any clearer to you Jay. It's right there in front of you.

Originally posted by Rajk999
There a dozens of ways of "coming into your home" .. via radio, television, internet, newspapers etc etc. Why is there a need to physically go into every house?

Your conclusions demonstrate your limited horizon, and you are using this narrow minded view to condemn the rest of Christianity and in the process elevate yourself and your fellow JWs.. totally c ...[text shortened]... spel but instead try to gain converts into the JW faith .. not what Christ commanded us to do.

yes rather interestingly they all revolve around the same criteria, you as a member of Christendom dont need to go to people and speak to them about the good news of Gods Kingdom, as Jesus himself did. please dont give your petty petitions and excuses to me, preaching is not teaching, but you dont know the difference, because you do not know either the inspired word nor the example of Jesus Christ. Here it is again, please tell God why you and Jaywill dont adhere to Christ's command, yet you somehow remain able to pontificate to others when they do the work that Christ taught and commanded his true followers to do. But spare me!

(Matthew 28:19-20) . . .Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

As can be seen from the scripture we are required to be teachers, even as Christ himself was. You cannot be a teacher simply by preaching at someone, you need to spend personal time with them, to take into consideration their personal view points, background, education, religious leanings etc etc. This cannot be done by simply preaching at them! No No, its takes effort and getting out of ones comfort zone!

(Romans 10:11-15) 11 For the Scripture says: “None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed.”  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for there is the same Lord over all, who is rich to all those calling upon him.  For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”  However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?  How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent forth? Just as it is written: “How comely are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”

You people stand condemned for you have hidden the Good news of Gods Kingdom away and when the master returns, he shall ask for his talent back, and what shall you say?

(Matthew 25:24-26) ..... ‘Master, I knew you to be an exacting man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow.  So I grew afraid and went off and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’  In reply his master said to him, ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow?