Originally posted by robbie carrobieMatthew 19: 25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Holy spirit is given! to those asking! how can a personage be divided up and given to sqillions of persons! it is nonsense!
26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
with God....all things are possible
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yes he shall be called eternal father, for Christ, the life giving spirit, bought back, from that what was lost through Adam, so that all those professing him, shall have life, in this sense he is an eternal father,
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This is the interpretation that Eternal Father in Isaiah 9:6 is some OTHER Eternal Father besides Jehovah. This is the interpretation that in the Bible there are TWO Eternal Fathers. This error teaches that one Eternal Father is Jehovah and the OTHER Eternal Father is someone else.
It doesn't matter who these teachers want to teach that the OTHER Eternal Father is. There is only ONE divine Father who is eternal. And that is Jehovah.
So while they criticize Christians for saying Father - Son - Holy Spirit they themselves have Father and the OTHER Father. They teach that there are TWO divine Fathers who are both eternal.
However, the Father of New Testament is the same Father as in the Old Testament, and particularly in Isaiah. Here is proof:
"I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; so then, you also do the things which you have heard from your father ... They then said to Him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, God. Jesus said to them, IF God were your Father you would love Me; for I came forth out from God and have come [from Him]; for I have not come of Myself, but He sent Me ... Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am." (See John 8:38-42, 59)
In this passage Jesus draws a direct link between the divine Father who was called Father by the Jews and His divine Father. His Father is the Father of Isaiah 9:6; 63:16; 64:8; Malachi 1:6.
Because of their opposition and hatred of the Son of God, Jesus challenges their murderous intention - asking in essence "How could God be your Father if you treat me this way" (paraphrase). This is very similar to the phophet Malachi recording the Jehovah saying "Therefore if I am a Father, where is My honor? (Mal. 1:6)
The point here is that it is wrong to teach that the Bible has TWO divine and eternal Fathers. So the Father of Isaiah 9:6, the eternal Father, is the same as the Father who sent the Son in John chapter 8.
Now I also included verse 59 in which the sent Son declares that before Abraham existed He (the Son) is the "I AM" of the book of Exodus:
Do not be stumbled at this paradox. Do not quarrel that it is impossible for the Son to be sent BY the divine Eternal Father and also BE the divine Eternal Father. Listen to another prophecy:
"In that day the Shoot of Jehovah will be beauty and glory, and the fruit of the earth, excellent and splendor, to those of Israel who haver escaped." (Isaiah 4:2)
In this book of Isaiah Christ is unveiled as the God-man. The Shoot or (Branch) of Jehovah refers to Christ's deity, showing His divine nature, and the fruit of the earth (Luke 1:42) refers to Christ's humanity with His human nature.
As the Shoot of Jehovah, Christ comes out of God, out of eternity (John 8:42; Micah 5:2). As the fruit of the earth, Christ, having a human body made of dust (Gen. 2:7) grows out of the earth (compare to Isa. 53:2).
The Shoot of Jehovah denotes that through His incarnation Christ is a new development of Jehovah God for the Triune God to branch Himself out in His divinity into humanity (Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:22-23).
This is for Jehovah God's encrease and spread in the universe. The Triune God branches out into the human race in incarnation. "The fruit of the earth" denotes that Christ, as the divine Shoot of Jehovah, also becomes a man of flesh from the earth (John 1:14; Hebrews 2:14)
Because Jesus Christ is the Branch of Jehovah, the Shoot of Jehovah God and the fruit of the earth He is God Almighty shooting out His eternal life and incarnating as a man of the earth. This is splendid and beautiful.
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it does not in any sense make him the father, or the almighty, for if that had been the case, Isaiah would have brought it to our attention, but the fact of the matter is, that he used a different word! not almighty God as you are want to assume and impose upon the inspired word of God, for which you are reprehensible, but mighty god, note that Phrase Jaywill, mighty god, not the almighty, but mighty!
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The Mighty God is Jehovah:
" ... the mighty God, Jehovah of hosts is his name" (Jeremiah 32:18 [1901 American Standard Bible]
"The Mighty One, God, Jehovah, hath spoken" (Psalm 50:1)
Is the Mighty God Jehovah ?
Yes or No ?
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look at this verse!
(Luke 11:11-13) . . .Indeed, which father is there among you who, if his son asks for a fish, will perhaps hand him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he also asks for an egg, will hand him a scorpion? Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!”
Holy spirit is given! to those asking! how can a personage be divided up and given to sqillions of persons! it is nonsense!
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The Bible says concerning all the members of the Body of Christ, the church, that the Father is in them all:
"One Body and one Spirit ... One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (See Eph. 4:4-6)
The one Spirit has been distributed into all the constituents of the One Body, the church. And simultaneously the one Father is "in all", meaning all the members of the mystical Body of Christ, the church.
And that even though there be a squillion members of the Lord's Body. One Father is over all, through all, and IN them all.
Originally posted by dueceris that the best you Lords of Dasrkness can present, with God all things are possible? pah, it is to laugh!
Matthew 19: 25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
with God....all things are possible
the bible compares holy spirit to water,
(Isaiah 44:3) . . .For I shall pour out water upon the thirsty one, and trickling streams upon the dry place. I shall pour out my spirit upon your seed, and my blessing upon your descendants.
would you have us believe that god pours out a personage? are there no limits to the perpetuation of this outrage!
when God 'pours', his holy spirit upon upon his servants, they become, filled with holy spirit, or full of holy spirit.
are we to give credence to the claim that a personage is being 'poured out', upon many individuals? are we to give consideration that one personage could fill a whole group of people? it defies logic, the very stones cry out, Nay that could never be!
the bible refers to persons becoming filled with wisdom, understanding, but it never describes anyone becoming filled up with another person, never mind lots of persons!
vines expository (he himself was a trinitarian i believe, spit ding!), has this to say, of the Greek word, translated spirit, (pneu'ma'😉 primarily denotes the wind...also breath: then especially spirit, which like the wind is invisible, immaterial and powerful'.
clearly the holy spirit is not a person and the trinity is a jive turkey of a doctrine on thanksgiving day!
Originally posted by robbie carrobie==============================
is that the best you Lords of Dasrkness can present, with God all things are possible? pah, it is to laugh!
the bible compares holy spirit to water,
(Isaiah 44:3) . . .For I shall pour out water upon the thirsty one, and trickling streams upon the dry place. I shall pour out my spirit upon your seed, and my blessing upon your descendants.
w pirit is not a person and the trinity is a jive turkey of a doctrine on thanksgiving day!
the bible compares holy spirit to water,
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You love to stay in the Old Testament, don't you?
The Spirit is living water in the New Testament explicitly:
" ... out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive ..." (John 7:39)
Now that is very interesting because the New Testament says that the Lord Himself is one spirit with the believer in Christ (1 Cor. 6:17). For the Lord to be one spirit with me is related strongly to the Spirit flowing out of my innermost being as "living water".
Probably the word of God speaks of this Person as living water because of water's property to fill up every cavity of the vessel in which it is in. So for the Spirit to fill me and flow out of me is also for the Spirit to spring up as a fountain into eternal life:
"But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water gushing up into eternal life." (John 4:14)
Water is also thirst quenching signifying that this Person of the Holy Spirit quenches the inward spiritual thirst of the believer in Christ.
But we have not only the living water to symbolize the Holy Spirit. We have the Spirit speaking along with the Bride, the church in Revelation:
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who is thirsty come; let him who wills take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17)
So the fluid water of life is also a SPEAKING divine Person. Not only so. He is coupled with the bride - "the Spirit and the bride". We would normally couple the Bridegroom with the Bride at a wedding. Well the Bridegroom Jesus Christ is indeed coupled with His Bride, the church. But in this passage the Bridegroom is the indwelling Person of the Spirit, the thirst quenching living water.
The Bride has become one who matches Christ. How has the Bride become one who matches Jesus Christ so as to be His wife? She has done so by being filled up with the Spirit - "the Spirit and the bride".
No doubt about the fact that the Holy Spirit is Christ in another form. Of course we are plainly told "Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17). So it should not be a surprise.
Originally posted by jaywillwhat complete and utter speculative nonsense! unworthy of our consideration. you have addressed not one of the issues raised, no not one, the usual trinitarian tactic of blindly laying counter argument upon argument without addressing what was asked. when will you honestly take a look at this doctrine and once and for all admit that it is jive turkey!
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the bible compares holy spirit to water,
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You love to stay in the Old Testament, don't you?
The Spirit is living water in the New Testament explicitly:
" ... out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. But this He said concerning the S ...[text shortened]... ]"Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17). So it should not be a surprise.[/b]
as for you reference about the Hebrew portion of Gods word, it is understandable why you do not like to go there, for the notion of a trinity was completely foreign to the ancient Hebrews, the custodians of the sacred writing for thousands of years!
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAgain you show your willfull ignorance of trinitarian doctrine. Nowhere in the church's orthodox tradition does it say that the Holy Spirit is a person, it is the Spirit of God who is Jesus Christ. They are all the same. you lose because you fail to understand😛
clearly the holy spirit is not a person and the trinity is a jive turkey of a doctrine on thanksgiving day!
Originally posted by duecerare you saying that it is not a person, for Jaywill is telling me that it is! your house is abandoned to you Duecer!
Again you show your willfull ignorance of trinitarian doctrine. Nowhere in the church's orthodox tradition does it say that the Holy Spirit is a person, it is the Spirit of God who is Jesus Christ. They are all the same. you lose because you fail to understand😛
look at this, my goodness you guys need your bum felt!
look at this,
(Romans 8:11) . . .If, now, the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you.
was Christ the spirit dead, we he was raised up by Christ the spirit? did Jesus resurrect himself, when he was dead? when he was in agony and cried out to the Father was he talking to himself? man you people want to get a grip! the verse clearly shows that it is Gods spirit that does these things, his active force, not some part of some unholy trinity!
Originally posted by robbie carrobie*buzzzzz* FAIL!
are you saying that it is not a person, for Jaywill is telling me that it is! your house is abandoned to you Duecer!
look at this, my goodness you guys need your bum felt!
look at this,
(Romans 8:11) . . .If, now, the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make ...[text shortened]... t is Gods spirit that does these things, his active force, not some part of some unholy trinity!
Originally posted by dueceractually, the verse is brilliant, for it clearly shows that it is not Christ the spirit that is doing these things, but Gods Spirit, ahhhh, i can rest easy in the comfort and satisfaction of having cleared this mystery up once and for all!
*buzzzzz* FAIL!
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThat is so funny. How many times have we said that trinitarians can't even agree on something they base their whole belief on......
are you saying that it is not a person, for Jaywill is telling me that it is! your house is abandoned to you Duecer!
look at this, my goodness you guys need your bum felt!
look at this,
(Romans 8:11) . . .If, now, the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make ...[text shortened]... t is Gods spirit that does these things, his active force, not some part of some unholy trinity!
I've seen this as long as I can remember ever hearing about this silly teaching.
Ok, so which is it? Is the holy Ghost: Jehovah, or Jesus or God or a spirt or just a force or what?
Originally posted by robbie carrobie=======================
what complete and utter speculative nonsense! unworthy of our consideration. you have addressed not one of the issues raised, no not one, the usual trinitarian tactic of blindly laying counter argument upon argument without addressing what was asked. when will you honestly take a look at this doctrine and once and for all admit that it is jive tur ...[text shortened]... ely foreign to the ancient Hebrews, the custodians of the sacred writing for thousands of years!
you have addressed not one of the issues raised, no not one,
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Name one issue that I did not address.
What was not addressed ?
Originally posted by galveston75========================
That is so funny. How many times have we said that trinitarians can't even agree on something they base their whole belief on......
I've seen this as long as I can remember ever hearing about this silly teaching.
Ok, so which is it? Is the holy Ghost: Jehovah, or Jesus or God or a spirt or just a force or what?
That is so funny. How many times have we said that trinitarians can't even agree on something they base their whole belief on......
I've seen this as long as I can remember ever hearing about this silly teaching.
Ok, so which is it? Is the holy Ghost: Jehovah, or Jesus or God or a spirt or just a force or what?
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I haven't seen any significant difference in what I wrote and what duecer wrote. I didn't notice a major difference.
I think Duecer said the Holy Spirit is not called a Person in the Bible. I agree even though I borrowed the word "Person" in my explanations.
There is the limitation of human language here. So it is permissible, I think, to borrow temporarily the term "Person" to talk about the Holy Spirit.
"The Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) is essentially communicating that the "Person" of the Lord Jesus is the Spirit.
So what is your problem?
The issue is that the Lord is Jesus Christ there and the Spirit is the Holy Spirit there.
Do you not agree with this?
Originally posted by jaywillvines expository, the bible makes no mention of a person ever being poured out and entering another person, but it is no use Jaywill, me and my Texan brother are high on victory, the spirit is Gods spirit, Romans 8:11 confirms this, Christ did not resurrect himself, God did, with his Holy spirit, the verse is quite clear, your house is divided, Deucer claims that it is not a person, never has been, you are claiming that it is! now your house is abandoned to you! not only that, but in view of Romans 8:11, we now have every reason to believe that 'the Lord', in your translation is none other than the sovereign lord of the universe, Jehovah himself, not the Christ as you have erroneously asserted!
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you have addressed not one of the issues raised, no not one,
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Name one issue that I did not address.
What was not addressed ?[/b]
Originally posted by galveston75=========================
That is so funny. How many times have we said that trinitarians can't even agree on something they base their whole belief on......
I've seen this as long as I can remember ever hearing about this silly teaching.
Ok, so which is it? Is the holy Ghost: Jehovah, or Jesus or God or a spirt or just a force or what?
That is so funny. How many times have we said that trinitarians can't even agree on something they base their whole belief on......
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Nice try. But not quite good enough.
I would say that we base our belief on the EXPERIENCE of the Triune God.
We experience that God is in Christ. We exprience that when we received Christ we received God.
Our unity as Christians is really in the experience of Christ as God incarnate, the Lord and Savior. And as the apostle John said we know that we abide in God and He in us by the Spirit that He has given to us.