03 Sep 09
1 edit
Galveston,
"Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)
Who is the Lord in 2 Corinthians ?
" For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord ..." (2 Cor. 4:5)
The apostles, including Paul, in the Second letter to the Corinthians, when they refer to LORD they mean "Christ Jesus".
Who is the Lord in this letter ?
"Grace to you and peace from God our Father .... AND THE LORD JESUS CHRIST (my emphasis 2 Cor. 1:2)
In the Second Corinthian Letter the Lord = Jesus Christ.
And now I will quote the footnote of the Recovery Version on 2 Cor. 3:17 which has a quotation in it by the New Testament word study scholar Vincent along with New Testament Greek scholars Dean Alford and Williston Walker.
[b]"According the context of this section, which begins as 2:12, the Lord here [2 Cor. 3:17] must refer to Christ the Lord (2:12, 14-15, 17; 3:3-4, 14, 16; 4:5). This then is a strong word in the Bible, telling us emphatically that Christ is the Spirit.
"The Lord Christ of v. 16 is the Spirit who pervades and animates the new covenant of which we are ministers (v.6), and the ministration of which is with glory (v.8). Compare Rom. 8:9-11; John 14:16, 18" (Vincent)
"The Lord of v. 16 is the Spirit ... which gives life, v.6: meaning, 'the Lord,' as here spoken of, 'Christ,' 'is the Spirit,' identical with the Holy Spirit ... Christ, here, is the Spirit of Christ" (Alford)
"All that transforming and indwelling Spirit is Christ Himself. 'The Lord is the Spirit' " (Williston Walker). "
03 Sep 09
Originally posted by jaywill2 Cor 3:16-18 is refering to Jehovah, not Jesus.
Galveston,
[b]"Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)
Who is the Lord in 2 Corinthians ?
" For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord ..." (2 Cor. 4:5)
The apostles, including Paul, in the Second letter to the Corinthians, when they refer to LORD they mean "Christ Jesus".
Who is the Lord ...[text shortened]... pirit is Christ Himself. 'The Lord is the Spirit' " (Williston Walker). "[/b]
03 Sep 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI've already won the debate, to do more would be rubbing your nose in it....that would be decidely unchristian of me😉
oh Manny Manny personification does not necessarily mean personality, as you are quite aware despite your delirium, as in the case of wisdom, for example.
what we really want to know is, where is the dark lord Deucer in all of this?
03 Sep 09
Originally posted by galveston75seriously though 2Cor 3:3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
2 Cor 3:16-18 is refering to Jehovah, not Jesus.
This whole chapter is about the Spirit of the Living God, Christ Jesus.
03 Sep 09
Originally posted by duecerguffaw! guffaw!
seriously though 2Cor 3:3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
This whole chapter is about the Spirit of the Living God, Christ Jesus.
03 Sep 09
1 edit
Originally posted by duecerNo, it's only by your logic that you see that. It's very clear to me who it's speaking of.
by your logic Jehovah is Jesus, thanks for making a point for our side. YAAAAAAAAYYYY!!!!! WE WIN AGAIN!!!!!
But if you would keep reading into chapter 4:1-6 it explains what the issue is with trinitarians and why they can't see the truth. And in verse 4 it again mentions that Jesus is the "image" of God...Not God. If he was God it would simply say so here.
03 Sep 09
8 edits
Originally posted by galveston75[/b] Second Corinthians 3:17 is refering to Jesus. Since Jesus is Jehovah incarnate, it is not wrong to say that it refers to Jehovah. It is wrong to say that it does not refer to Jesus.
[b]2 Cor 3:16-18 is refering to Jehovah, not Jesus
For, the Lord there is Jesus Christ as has been abundantly proved to you. You are simply in denial.
A person in denial as you are is a person showing the symptoms of obsession. Some of us can see the difference in a Bible reader standing faithfully for the teaching of the Bible and one who is obsessed. You portray the latter - obsession.
In the same letter Paul writes "since you seek proof of Christ who is speaking in me, who is not weak unto you but is powerful in you." (2 Cor. 13:3) [/b]
This passage says two things:
1.) Jesus Christ is speaking in Paul. So Christ is in Paul.
2.) Jesus Christ is also powerful in the Corinthian Christians. So Christ is in the Christians too.
Two or so more verses away from this Paul explicitly states that Jesus Christ is in the disciples or they are reprobate (disapproved):
"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor. 13:5)
Jesus Christ is in the apostle and in the Corinthian Christians or they are disapproved concerning the New Testament faith.
The conclusion of the letter states that the fellowship of the Holy Spirit is with the disciples. It is in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ is in them for " ... the Lord is the Spirit".
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. "(2 Cor. 13:14)
It is through the fellowship of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Who is the Lord Spirit) that a man can have Jesus Christ living in him rather than be reprobate concerning the Christian faith.
In Second Corinthians 3:6 we are told "but the Spirit gives life". The Holy Spirit not only gives life but is called "the Spirit of life" (Romans 8:2)
In the same letter the Spirit of life in the disciples giving them life is also called Christ in them - "But if Christ be in you ..." (Rom. 8:10a)
03 Sep 09
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywill""""And in verse 4 it again mentions that Jesus is the "image" of God...Not God. If he was God it would simply say so here."""
Second Corinthians 3:17 is refering to Jesus. Since Jesus is Jehovah incarnate, it is not wrong to say that it refers to Jehovah. It is wrong to say that it does not refer to Jesus.
For, the Lord there is Jesus Christ as has been abundantly proved to you. You are simply in denial.
A person in denial as you are is a person showing the s e is also called Christ in them - "But if Christ be in you ..." (Rom. 8:10a)[/b]
Why are you not responding to this scripture?
Do you not know what an image is of something especially in this case?
Have you not yourself heard someone say that a child is the spitting image of his Mother or Father? What does that mean?
03 Sep 09
Originally posted by galveston75===========================
""""And in verse 4 it again mentions that Jesus is the "image" of God...Not God. If he was God it would simply say so here."""
Why are you not responding to this scripture?
Do you not know what an image is of something especially in this case?
Have you not yourself heard someone say that a child is the spitting image of his Mother or Father? What does that mean?
""""And in verse 4 it again mentions that Jesus is the "image" of God...Not God. If he was God it would simply say so here."""
Why are you not responding to this scripture?
Do you not know what an image is of something especially in this case?
Have you not yourself heard someone say that a child is the spitting image of his Mother or Father? What does that mean?
========================================
I will respond to this particular point next. No dodging. No ignoring it.
We will deal with it. But I cannot write too long of a response.
03 Sep 09
Originally posted by jaywillJust keep it short and simple...
[b]===========================
""""And in verse 4 it again mentions that Jesus is the "image" of God...Not God. If he was God it would simply say so here."""
Why are you not responding to this scripture?
Do you not know what an image is of something especially in this case?
Have you not yourself heard someone say that a child is the spittin ...[text shortened]... g. No ignoring it.
We will deal with it. But I cannot write too long of a response.
03 Sep 09
Originally posted by galveston75Also while your researching go back to Phil 2:5-11. I know Robbie has sent this to you a few times but still I want to see again how you can say that Jesus and Jehovah are the same from this?
Just keep it short and simple...
Where it says: In god's form it does not mean he's God. Just a spirit like God.
03 Sep 09
Originally posted by galveston75that has been asked and answered by me a half dozen times, and by Jaywill, read back through the thread if you want a response
Also while your researching go back to Phil 2:5-11. I know Robbie has sent this to you a few times but still I want to see again how you can say that Jesus and Jehovah are the same from this?
Where it says: In god's form it does not mean he's God. Just a spirit like God.
03 Sep 09
Originally posted by galveston75Okay. I just wrote a lot but lost it in a brief electrical black out. Maybe it was sovereign of the Lord.
Just keep it short and simple...
So then. We'll take it a step at a time and you will help answer.
First:
Does Christ being the image of God in 2 Cor. 4:4 make Christ NOT the Lord in verse 5 ?
Are you saying that IF I accept that Christ is the image of God in 4:4 then I MUST reject that Christ is the Lord in the next verse?
Are you saying that IF I accept that Christ is the image of God then I must reject that "the Lord is the Spirit" of 3:17?
That is my first question. Do I have to reject one teaching in order to accept the other ?